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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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southbeach

After some thought I've decided to experiment once again with a compound free-weight only routine.

For quite some time (years) I've trained machine only HIT style exclusively, with most emphasis on isolation movements.

I'm happy with those results. I fell in love with the "Nautilus machine" from the very first time I strapped one on. And HIT training always made physiological sense to me. The Nautilus compound pullover/pulldown;the compound leg two of my all time favorites!

After many great discussions here with experienced members, and knowledgeable professional trainers I've decided to embark on a new venture.

For next 3 months I'll do a free-weight only COMPOUND -ONLY routine. Multiple sets where they are "advised" will be considered on individual merit.

What the hell, let's see if I can take my physique to the next level!

My routine for next SIX WEEKS (of my 3 month experiment) will be in order:

1) Full Squat
2) Bench Press
3) Bent-over Barbell Row
4) Deadlift
5) Upright Row
6)Calf Raise
7) Ab Crunches

(2) sets of each. 15-20 reps first set;whatever I can get on 2nd set with same weight.

Where I get 20 reps (2/4 cadence), i will increase the weight. All sets TTF.
(i won't budge on this point :)

(3) times per week. Mon, Wed, Fri.


Well, what do you think? Please comment on my routine. Give me the good, the bad and the ugly :)

ALL opinion, criticism welcome. I want to know what you think, after all you guys collectively started me to thinking.


ps: Backing off all CARDIO and will only do a light 3 mile run (9 min miles) weekends ONLY (sat, sun).


I am anxious to see what happens (if anything) :}}}
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

It's a great idea, considering your concentration on mainly iso movements these last years. The main problems I see with your routine are:
1. Too many compounds in one workout, esp if you plan on sticking with the 2 sets.
2. LOTS of overlap.

These 2 notions are inter-related too.

Let's look at your routine with some annotations:
1) Full Squat - Lots of Lower Back
2) Bench Press - Good
3) Bent-over Barbell Row - Also much lower back
4) Deadlift - LOTS of lower back
5) Upright Row - Lower back to hold you upright
6)Calf Raise - hit very well if you do full ROM squats
7) Ab Crunches

With these redundancies in mind, please consider the following:

[EDIT: Was going to herd you here in stages, but decided to make it in one fell swoop]
A
1) Full Squat
2) BN Press or Upright Row
3) BB Row
4) Tricep Ext or CG Bench
5) Ab Crunches

B
1) Deadlifts
2) Bench Press
3) Chins or Pulldowns
4) BB Curl or Forearm movement
5) Calves

This at least breaks it up a bit, before your lumbar region --- or your whole body --- goes on strike.

Scott
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jn6047

I would favour a routine more in line with a push/pull/legs split, something like this:

Day 1:

Bench press
Shoulder press or upright row
tricep press

Day 2:

Pulldown or chin
Barbell row or dumbbell row
Deadlift

Day 3:

Leg press
Full squat
calf raise

Volume is still very low, but I'm sure alot of people here won't like the split routien. I really like split routines and have made good progress with them, and poor/non existant progress with whole body routines.

Best of luck.

jn6047
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crazeeJZ

southbeach wrote:
After some thought I've decided to experiment once again with a compound free-weight only routine.

For quite some time (years) I've trained machine only HIT style exclusively, with most emphasis on isolation movements.

I'm happy with those results. I fell in love with the "Nautilus machine" from the very first time I strapped one on. And HIT training always made physiological sense to me. The Nautilus compound pullover/pulldown;the compound leg two of my all time favorites!

After many great discussions here with experienced members, and knowledgeable professional trainers I've decided to embark on a new venture.

For next 3 months I'll do a free-weight only COMPOUND -ONLY routine. Multiple sets where they are "advised" will be considered on individual merit.

What the hell, let's see if I can take my physique to the next level!

My routine for next SIX WEEKS (of my 3 month experiment) will be in order:

1) Full Squat
2) Bench Press
3) Bent-over Barbell Row
4) Deadlift
5) Upright Row
6)Calf Raise
7) Ab Crunches

(2) sets of each. 15-20 reps first set;whatever I can get on 2nd set with same weight.

Where I get 20 reps (2/4 cadence), i will increase the weight. All sets TTF.
(i won't budge on this point :)

(3) times per week. Mon, Wed, Fri.


Well, what do you think? Please comment on my routine. Give me the good, the bad and the ugly :)

ALL opinion, criticism welcome. I want to know what you think, after all you guys collectively started me to thinking.


ps: Backing off all CARDIO and will only do a light 3 mile run (9 min miles) weekends ONLY (sat, sun).


I am anxious to see what happens (if anything) :}}}


Squat, bent-over row, and deadlift is lower-back overkill.

Going TF with this frequency is going to be cumulative body fatigue overkill.

Eliminate the deadlift, no need for it with squats and rows.

Either avoid failure and push yourself to progress by 1 rep each workout on the 2nd set, or if you want to keep failure, reduce frequency to twice a week, and limit failure to the 2nd set only.

I would cut reps to around 10 since you're doing slow negatives and multiple sets.

Compounds are more demanding than isos, you have to increase calories over what you're currently eating for the possibility of any growth.

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HeavyHitter32

If one is truly going to failure and advanced, two sets to failure (at 2/4) on all of these compounds in one session will lead to fast systematic burnout and lower back overtraining.

Then, you'll come back saying that compound exercises don't work.
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Hitit

WOW! This is something else and amazes me. I really respect you trying something new after you've been quite disciplined with your other routine. I am quite excited to see you trying this and would love to see progress.

Personally, I do think if you are going TTF then doing those listed 3 workouts per week is too much.

I think you would be better with twice a week to start. But more importantly, it may be more beneficial to play it by "feel" with your recovery more.

I would also listen to Scott. I really think he knows his SH**.

Brian

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JohnnyD

Okay, okay, okay. Here we go! I will say this before Entsminger does (cause I cannot resist), but where is the BEFORE photo so we can see your progress at the end of the "what the hell, take it to the next level" three months? All of the words will not speak louder than the BEFORE and AFTER images.

JohnnyD
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

P.S. TTF on Dealifts is a foolish endeavour for young or old men. Start easy, and concentrate on Progression.
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hdlifter

jn6047 wrote:
I would favour a routine more in line with a push/pull/legs split, something like this:

Day 1:

Bench press
Shoulder press or upright row
tricep press

Day 2:

Pulldown or chin
Barbell row or dumbbell row
Deadlift

Day 3:

Leg press
Full squat
calf raise

Volume is still very low, but I'm sure alot of people here won't like the split routien. I really like split routines and have made good progress with them, and poor/non existant progress with whole body routines.

Best of luck.

jn6047


I agree, all the way! Bar upright rows, which is an unnatural movement with the potential to impinge the shoulder joint. My beloved Scott press works wonders...and continues to do for me and others who have adopted it.

Other than that, it's about as it good as it gets.
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hdlifter

simon-hecubus wrote:
P.S. TTF on Dealifts is a foolish endeavour for young or old men. Start easy, and concentrate on Progression.


Due to the potential risks, deadlifts require the last 1-2 reps kept inside. Also, as I found back in 2008, are ideal worked every 21 days.

With 22 muscles worked in unison, it stands to reason adequate down-time is needed to bounce back. When I rested 21 days, I was shocked how 'light' the bar felt. I had to keep rechecking the bar during the set to see if I had chosen right.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

hdlifter wrote:
...Bar upright rows, which is an unnatural movement with the potential to impinge the shoulder joint. My beloved Scott press works wonders...and continues to do for me and others who have adopted it...


Totally agree on Upright Rows, Kevin. Not just RC impingement, but very awkward on the wrist joints.

Alternatively, I have been enjoying very much High Pulls a la Bill Sahli. I use cables and pull up to the bottom of my rib cage. I like separate handles, so I can have a natural grip (halfway/45-deg between pronated and neutral). The trouble is that, unless I want to go high rep, I've topped-out the cable stack.

An alternative are Haney Shrugs. I do these standing backwards on a cantilever shrug machine.

Both exercises are great for traps, delts, biceps, and both types of brachs.

BUT, for SB's purposes, he can't beat BN Press for a good compound delt and tri exercise.

Scott
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davise

My suggestion. YMMV.

Monday, Friday and Wednesday of next week ie 3 times every two weeks.
- Full Squat - I prefer belt squat
- Parallel Grip Dumbbell Bench Press
- One Arm Dumbell Row
- Parallel Grip Seated Dumbbell Press
- Supinated Chins or Pulldowns
- 45 Degree Hyper
- Ab Crunches
- One Legged Dumbbell Calf Raise

SB...I know you like to run. Don't stop, just run on Wednesday of the first week and Monday and Friday on the second.

Week1
M-Weights
Tu-Rest
W-Run
Th-Rest
F-Weights
SA/SU - Rest and Recreation

Week2
M-Run
Tu-Rest
W-Weights
Th-Rest
F-Run
SA/SU - Rest and Recreation

Rep Ranges. With your 2/4 Cadence I would use 8-12 for everything but Squats which I would use 10-15.
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davise

My suggestion. YMMV.

Monday, Friday and Wednesday of next week ie 3 times every two weeks.
- Full Squat - I prefer belt squat
- Parallel Grip Dumbbell Bench Press
- One Arm Dumbell Row
- Parallel Grip Seated Dumbbell Press
- Supinated Chins or Pulldowns
- 45 Degree Hyper
- Ab Crunches
- One Legged Dumbbell Calf Raise
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db144

Deadlift
Mil Press or BNP
Calf Raise

5 days later

Pulldown or High Pull
Incline Press
Bent Row

Repeat cycle

d
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southbeach

db144 wrote:
Deadlift
Mil Press or BNP
Calf Raise

5 days later

Pulldown or High Pull
Incline Press
Bent Row

Repeat cycle

d


i'm pretty sure that's not enough exercise for optimum stimulation. Insufficient volume, and variety.

Also, nothing there for the legs??
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southbeach

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
If one is truly going to failure and advanced, two sets to failure (at 2/4) on all of these compounds in one session will lead to fast systematic burnout and lower back overtraining.

Then, you'll come back saying that compound exercises don't work.


There's only true LOWER BACK exercise on my list is the deadlift. The low back musculature activation during the bent over row is low level isometric.

The squat i intend to maintain an upright posture, weight over heels and a deliberate lumbar lordosis. This form should keep low back activation to a minimum shouldn't it?

In my analysis only one "hard" low back exercise on list..ie the deadlift

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southbeach

hdlifter wrote:
jn6047 wrote:
I would favour a routine more in line with a push/pull/legs split, something like this:

Day 1:

Bench press
Shoulder press or upright row
tricep press

Day 2:

Pulldown or chin
Barbell row or dumbbell row
Deadlift

Day 3:

Leg press
Full squat
calf raise

Volume is still very low, but I'm sure alot of people here won't like the split routien. I really like split routines and have made good progress with them, and poor/non existant progress with whole body routines.

Best of luck.

jn6047

I agree, all the way! Bar upright rows, which is an unnatural movement with the potential to impinge the shoulder joint. My beloved Scott press works wonders...and continues to do for me and others who have adopted it.

Other than that, it's about as it good as it gets.


I'll consider the "Scott" but I always liked the upright row. I bend slightly forward at waist. Take a shoulder wide grip. Fingers only, no thumb by "cupping" the hand. Starting position is with elbows bent @30 degrees. Pull till UPPER portion of round Olympic bar reaches nipples.

I do NOT over raise the bar! My arms are not quite horizontal at "full top".

I'm not recommending them just explaining the way I've always done them in the past.

I like the upright row done this way they always reminded me of the best part of "cleans".
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southbeach

To add to it...my Upright Row is a very short stroke so a significant amount of weight can be utilized.

In addition I forgot to add that after reaching TTF I will extend the set. Maintaining an elbow bend of 30 degrees I will continue the set by SHRUGGING shoulders to TTF or very nearly.

BTW, I start tomorrow.
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HeavyHitter32

southbeach wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
If one is truly going to failure and advanced, two sets to failure (at 2/4) on all of these compounds in one session will lead to fast systematic burnout and lower back overtraining.

Then, you'll come back saying that compound exercises don't work.

There's only true LOWER BACK exercise on my list is the deadlift. The low back musculature activation during the bent over row is low level isometric.

The squat i intend to maintain an upright posture, weight over heels and a deliberate lumbar lordosis. This form should keep low back activation to a minimum shouldn't it?

In my analysis only one "hard" low back exercise on list..ie the deadlift



The lower back involvement with all of those moves all adds up though.

The squat, no matter how performed, still involves the lower back to a degree - the taller you are, the more so. I would just make sure you're using somewhat high reps on it, or just use leg presses (my preference) especially since you are doing deadlifts.
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southbeach

What's the purpose of pronating the forearm during the "Scott" press? The delts don't pronate the forearm, that action is performed by the Pronator Teres

Turning the hand while pressing seems pointless??
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jn6047

southbeach wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
If one is truly going to failure and advanced, two sets to failure (at 2/4) on all of these compounds in one session will lead to fast systematic burnout and lower back overtraining.

Then, you'll come back saying that compound exercises don't work.

There's only true LOWER BACK exercise on my list is the deadlift. The low back musculature activation during the bent over row is low level isometric.

The squat i intend to maintain an upright posture, weight over heels and a deliberate lumbar lordosis. This form should keep low back activation to a minimum shouldn't it?

In my analysis only one "hard" low back exercise on list..ie the deadlift




If bent over rows and squats don't stimulate your lower back then the weights are not anywhere near how heavy they need to be.

jn6047
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db144

SB:

The barbell bent row and deadlift both work the legs. Any anatomy book on weight training will teach you that but in your eyes if there is no DIRECT work it doesn't count. As if you can deadlift without the legs....

You still don't understand the indirect effect and how secondary and stabilizing muscles work. Again check a weight training anatomy book.

If you try to piece together a compound exercise routine as you did with a isolation program, that is an exercise for each muscle, you will be over trained before you realize its happened.

My suggestion would be to listen to others because what you propose will not work, you're not Casey or a juiced pro bodybuilder. Instead of arguing as if you know what your doing, try listening to others for a change and maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

Remember, if you knew how to train properly you wouldn't be 20 years along with weight training and still spinning your wheels.

Less is more with compound exercises. Use the overlap effect to your advantage and get enough rest. Its that simple. Many here have helped me and I'm doing fine. If you'd listen you would see results too.

When intensity is increased volume and frequency must go down or you risk over training and/or injury.

If you think you're going to do 5 compound exercises for the largest muscles 3x per week, 2 sets to failure you're out of your mind and this experiment will fail before it begins. I know, I did exactly what you're proposing and know how it will end.

I will not post on this subject to you again as you're the only person I know that asks for help and rejects help because you know better.

d
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Full body routines are great but I think you would get much more muscle response from a split, how about you try this:

W01

Warm up

Pull down on lat machinne 2 sets

Back

Chin ups (pronated grip) 3x6
Hammer Strength Rows or DB rows 3x12-10-8
Deadlifts 3x3

Delts

BN Press 3x6
Face pulls 3x12-10-8

W02

Warm up

Leg extensions 3x15-10

Leg Press 3x10
Hack Squat 2x10-8
One Leg Curls 2x10-8

Calf Press 1 Rest Pause set


W03

Warm up: Rotator Cuff 2 sets

Decline Press 3x3, 1xMax
Flye 2x8-10

Pushdown 3x15-10-8
Lying extensions 2x10-8

Biceps Curl w/ BB 2x10-8
Preacher Curl 1 set Rest Pause
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southbeach

db144 wrote:
SB:

The barbell bent row and deadlift both work the legs. Any anatomy book on weight training will teach you that but in your eyes if there is no DIRECT work it doesn't count. As if you can deadlift without the legs....

You still don't understand the indirect effect and how secondary and stabilizing muscles work. Again check a weight training anatomy book.

If you try to piece together a compound exercise routine as you did with a isolation program, that is an exercise for each muscle, you will be over trained before you realize its happened.

My suggestion would be to listen to others because what you propose will not work, you're not Casey or a juiced pro bodybuilder. Instead of arguing as if you know what your doing, try listening to others for a change and maybe you'll learn a thing or two.

Remember, if you knew how to train properly you wouldn't be 20 years along with weight training and still spinning your wheels.

Less is more with compound exercises. Use the overlap effect to your advantage and get enough rest. Its that simple. Many here have helped me and I'm doing fine. If you'd listen you would see results too.

When intensity is increased volume and frequency must go down or you risk over training and/or injury.

If you think you're going to do 5 compound exercises for the largest muscles 3x per week, 2 sets to failure you're out of your mind and this experiment will fail before it begins. I know, I did exactly what you're proposing and know how it will end.

I will not post on this subject to you again as you're the only person I know that asks for help and rejects help because you know better.

d


I don't think there is one poster on this board that relies on deadlifting and bent over rowing for their leg development. That's a very odd request db. :/
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db144

SB:

Does anybody else on the board run religiously like yourself? I'd say no.

Because of all that running and the running you plan on continuing, leg development IMO should be a secondary consideration. Running is counterproductive to gaining muscle and I'm sure your legs are plenty strong enough already.

By the way I'm in the same boat. My other training removes the need for direct leg work but regardless my legs have shown improvement in composition and strength.

d
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