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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

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Best Compound Exercise for Delts?
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Tony Williams

What do you believe is the compound exercise that also works the delts the best?

Please no debate over isolation and compound exercises.

Simply which of the compound exercises best works the delts without employing an isolation exercise.

Tony
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HeavyHitter32

If you can do them, some sort of high pull movement. I don't find that move easy on my shoulders, but doing them on a cable machine can help and really hits the delts.
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Hitit

Personally at this time I like OHP.

With the right machine or movement I think you can hit anterior, lateral and posterior.
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spud

I think if you have access to certain machines, then the overhead press machine is going to be your best bet.

The only line of decent machines I have ever experienced is Nautilus Nitro.

A set of the Nitro overhead press machine and I was done. I could feel my shoulders for the rest of the day, and most of the next day. When I say that, I mean they felt pumped, but also heavy and deeply fatigued.

However, currently I train in a gym where the best shoulder exercise I currently do is the parallel bar dip. I do it slow and with great control, always being careful on that lower turnaround because it can be a real shoulder wrecker if you just drop into the bottom position and bounce out of it.

I go as deep as I safely can, which is below parallel, but the results I am seeing in my front an middle delts are very good.

For rear delts the best exercise is the seated row machine. I've been doing it for about 2 months now after over a year no rear delt work and the difference again is remarkable. My level of development is nothing to shout about, please realise I am only making these statements based on my physique, comparing it with how it used to be.

The best way to summarise as far as I am concerned, is that as long as your program as a whole contains:

*A vertical press
*A horizontal press (include dips in this category)

*A vertical pull
*A horizontal pull

Then I think you are doing all that you can for shoulder development. You don't have to do all of these in the same session, just as long as you do them each time you go through your program as a whole.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Press/negative lateral combo...

1. Press the dumbbells straight up with a neutral grip position.

2. Next rep, press out to an angle (but not straight out... maybe 45-degrees outward); at the same time, the hands will rotate to an overhand grip position (which turns into a palms down position for the start of Step 3).

3. After completing the second rep (angled out press), lower as slow as possible for a negative lateral.

4. curl and press overhead (to repeat step 1).

Not sure how clear this is, but the combination of activity does far more to activate a lot more delt than simply one movement.
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overfiftylifter

Matrix Roll-Press

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=d3z5Hw_xl3U
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Turpin

Pulling ; cable high pull to sternum.

Pushing ; alternate front / rear barbell press ( no lockout , simply circling forward & back just clearing head height ) we used to term these `circles` as if one concentrates ( as they should ) on the movement of the elbow each repetition makes a complete circle.



T.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

I was never a fan of placing a barbell behind my neck... the tissues of the shoulder joint pull at an unnatural angle when doing so. Some people can, others cannot... I cannot.
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overfiftylifter

I was skeptical about the roll-press movement at first. Far too any shoulder injuries in my past caused problems with overhead movements which I believe hindered my development. But with Matrix, the light loads used with the roll-press have had a rehab effect on my shoulders and many other trainees have noted this as well. Dr. Laura has used that movement to rehab shoulder injuries in his Clinic for over two decades. He frequently has the trainees, including myself, start with a broom stick or unloaded bar. The roll-press has been very successful improving my shoulder musculature.
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crazeeJZ

The Scott press is one I've been looking to try that a few people here said also hits the lateral head nicely.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Most (not all) shoulder injuries are the result of injury to the rotator cuff group (and most often the supraspinatus). That movement does not affect the function or movement of the supraspinatus. Not sure how pressing and rolling the weight forward and back would help typical shoulder injuries. If you have an explanation, please provide.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
If you can do them, some sort of high pull movement. I don't find that move easy on my shoulders, but doing them on a cable machine can help and really hits the delts.


I find that using a low cable attachment with the 2 separate handles helps (vs. a bar attachment). I use a 'natural' grip, which for me is slightly pronated from the neutral position --- maybe 20-30 degrees.

Still a big fan of BN Press, mainly the lower 2/3-3/4 of the movement.

Scott
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Turpin

Brian Johnston wrote:
I was never a fan of placing a barbell behind my neck... the tissues of the shoulder joint pull at an unnatural angle when doing so. Some people can, others cannot... I cannot.


I agree some cannot tolerate any movements that take the upper arm out of the neutral position.
Personally I am very comfortable with exercises such as behind the neck pullup , Gironda/reverse grip dips , neck presses etc but then ( to-date ) I dont go overboard with resistance used.

T.

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
I was never a fan of placing a barbell behind my neck... the tissues of the shoulder joint pull at an unnatural angle when doing so. Some people can, others cannot... I cannot.


Turpin wrote:
I agree some cannot tolerate any movements that take the upper arm out of the neutral position.
Personally I am very comfortable with exercises such as behind the neck pullup , Gironda/reverse grip dips , neck presses etc but then ( to-date ) I dont go overboard with resistance used.
T.


Right on, Craig. Resistance and form are very important for these movements. Using too much and bouncing and/or jerking the weights is a surefire recipe for ailments.

Extreme ROM is another culprit. I'd wager that many who've had probs with BN Press were going all the way down til the bar touched the base of their neck. Big mistake.

I lower until the bar is even with the bottom of my ears (or base of the skull), no more.

I'm sure the same could be said of doing High Pulls all the way up to the armpits. Ouch! The sternum or maybe lower pec line is plenty.

Scott
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overfiftylifter

It has been suggested that the action of the roll-press stretches the anterior fascia around the shoulder which progressively liberates the capsule and produces greater pain-free movement. The near constant tension of the exercise produces a strong post hyperemia that encourages healing.
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HeavyHitter32

simon-hecubus wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
If you can do them, some sort of high pull movement. I don't find that move easy on my shoulders, but doing them on a cable machine can help and really hits the delts.

I find that using a low cable attachment with the 2 separate handles helps (vs. a bar attachment). I use a 'natural' grip, which for me is slightly pronated from the neutral position --- maybe 20-30 degrees.

Still a big fan of BN Press, mainly the lower 2/3-3/4 of the movement.

Scott


Yes, one of these days I might just invest in a pulley system as I train at home. I miss the days of using such equipment in the gym.

I do have a Powertec multi-station unit and the shoulder press is extraordinarly smooth. I sort of take a "regular" positioning (not behind neck, but not in front of delts either). I've just never used the movement a ton, but perhaps I will include it in an upcoming training cycle now I think about it. The top 1/4 movement of any shoulder press seems to be mostly triceps, correct?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Yes, exactly... the blood flow is helping to heal, but is not directly working the problem (and so, higher volume reps sets with other exercises would prove as effective, and direct and specific rotator cuff activity even more so). And the stretching could be done sans pressing movements.
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overfiftylifter

The roll-press inherently appears to improve overall shoulder function. Dr. Laura's many decades use of the exercise which includes his empirical observations from many trainees over that time, my personal correspondences with those who have used the movement and my personal experience suggests that the roll-press may be a viable rehab tool. Your view appears to differ.

Before adding this exercise, I would have never thought about personally painting the exterior of my house. After 3 months using the roll-press, I was surprised how easy it was to accomplish with much better arm abduction due to one exercise.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

That's why I prefer actual abduction exercises with proper equipment (to set and brace the arms in place). I had MANY clients who couldn't even lift their arms over their heads, let alone done a press/roll exercise with a broomstick.
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overfiftylifter

Again Brian, your view differs and I can quite easily live with that. This exercise would be performed in phases based on the individual condition. I assume you do this with your trainees. This is a simple movement,with a long record of success, requiring no extra equipment and helps restore a natural action that is frequently used.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Hey, I'm not knocking it... if it works for you or anyone else, then fine. But how do you introduce this into phases if they can't lift their hands above shoulder height? What if a pressing motion is painful? And as you stated, but I will substitute the exercise, actual rotator cuff exercises have a long history of success (unlike this shoulder roll you're talking about, which I never see mentioned anywhere and never heard of any rehab person using to correct and prevent rotator cuff issues).

If I have to buy a $70 Shoulderhorn, then so be it... I'm not that poor and I do charge my clients... I can afford to buy equipment specific to their conditions since I'm charging to help their specific conditions. My neck machine costs thousands of dollars as well, but I'll use that to rehab the neck as opposed to ANY other means out there.

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backtrack

For sheer width it has to be the overhead press with the barbell. Many shoulder exercises will come and go this one won't. The best advice with this is to focus on the pattern of movement between the top of the head and near lockout. The distance between the head and clavicle is where you will fail so before this happens stop shy of the head and get a few more restricted repetitons. The movement head down doesnt seem to produce a lot of deltoid activity anyway.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Press/negative lateral combo...

1. Press the dumbbells straight up with a neutral grip position.

2. Next rep, press out to an angle (but not straight out... maybe 45-degrees outward); at the same time, the hands will rotate to an overhand grip position (which turns into a palms down position for the start of Step 3).

3. After completing the second rep (angled out press), lower as slow as possible for a negative lateral.

4. curl and press overhead (to repeat step 1).

Not sure how clear this is, but the combination of activity does far more to activate a lot more delt than simply one movement.


YouTube video of this one would be awesome.
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overfiftylifter

Brian, as with any exercise used for rehab, or any other reason, should start with the pain-free range of motion. This starting range may be a frontal press to a certain height, perhaps a few inches, progressing over time to the ability to put the weight overhead for the roll-over. As the range expands the load is progressively worked to the back of the neck. The stretching action of this rotational arc over the head, not only helps posture but seems to have rehab benefits on the elbows as well. After a full Bradford press type movement is achieved, greater overhead press action is then added. Once again, progress into the movement is very individualistic. The exercise, as shown in the video, is done with compete stops at endpoints and controlled with low loads.

For myself, I had problems lifting loads above my forehead and found after the first two weeks or so when the Bradford movement was mastered, full abduction was much easier. I also like the simplicity of using the one exercise which has greatly improved my shoulder development as well.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

You're supporting my stance perfectly. A person can only lift the arms a few inches up and will take time before being able to do the exercise you are suggesting.

IN THE MEANTIME, I'm doing actual rehab exercises SPECIFIC to the problem (barring the elbow problems you now are throwing into the equation), which means developing and strengthening the problem specifically and directly, rather than taking the time to work into an exercise that is less direct and non-specific.

I am not dismissing the effect it had on you, but don't dismiss the effect of specific and direct exercise relative to a problem, rather than second-best. It's like the Canadian Back Institute having people with low back problems walk a treadmill and do a host of other things other than actual low back rehab. Other activities can help, but it is not the same thing. And using a neck machine is very different for neck injuries than using electrical stimulation with some massage.
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