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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

From another, far-too-long and off-track thread:

"Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
DSears wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:


No one who has been training smart and hard and who eats nutritiously makes "great gains" after a few years of training - unless - they are taking T or HGH or stronger stuff.

Sorry!

And let's face it, people LIE through their teeth about a lot of stuff especially when it comes to training/eaitng.

Fred,

Dr. Darden reported that he and Joe Cirulli are both up about 8-10 pounds in muscle from doing X-Force. Both men are in their 60's with long training histories.

Bill DeSimone reported that he's up about 5 pounds from X-Force. Bill's not as old as the other two but he's definitely not a novice trainer.

I would consider Dr. Darden and Bill to be credible sources. What is your opinion on their claims to having made great gains as advanced trainees? T or HGH? Regaining muscle?

Well...I find it difficult to beleive that these men have gained that much muscle that quickly. BUT I know these men and they would not lie. Too bad there is no documentation though.

"Too bad there is no documentation though"
So we're not lying, but without documentation we're...what?
Sorry I'm not up to your standards, Fred.
Yes, that was sarcastic.

****Yeah, yeah. What would have been very cool is Darden quality comparison pix of each of you. And a DEXA reading.

But here's what I think - the added poundage using XF is probably what caused the increased lean mass. This is what I have experienced going from SS to SB. "
##

Here's what I think: there's a valid training point to be made here, so that I'm pulling this passage out of that mess of a thread. Unfortunately, not the final one Seriousstrength/Fred made.

For the record, Roger Schwab also reports similar gains. Which means, according to the last paragraph, the 4 of us, with about 200 cumulative years of training experience, couldn't figure out "added poundage" what was missing in our training prior to X-Force. Gee, thanks, flattered, I'm sure.

First of all, as discussed on this board a while back, whether you actually use more poundage on an X-Force weight stack, compared to a conventional stack, is very much debatable. And the conclusion, if I remember correctly, was that you couldn't relate the two types of stacks, that X-Force was a different kind of exercise.

Second, the problems with "adding poundage" in general, for an experienced trainee,are the strain on the joints and all the postural cheats that creep in. So while one might be able to stack a machine, the hitches, shrugs, squirming, lockouts, all put the load on the joints and not the targeted muscles. I prefer not to train that way. No, "added poundage" doesn't account for any changes from X-Force.

The difference between X-Force (and 30-30-30/N-P-N) and all other forms of training is the extra intensity, that comes from re-emphasizing the negative. I don't want to steal Dr. Darden's thunder and speculate on exactly the mechanism. But in terms I'm comfortable with as a trainer: a given set on X-Force (and 30-etc.) is inherently harder than the same TUL, reps, etc. on conventional equipment. All other "set intensifier techniques" extend the set: forced reps, pre-exhaust, breakdowns, total inroad etc. More painful, but not harder. Incorporating harder negatives within the set makes the set harder. 10 reps, failing on 11 on X-Force, is harder than 10 reps, fail on 11 on every other device. More effort, more depletion, more result.
No T, growth hormone, or lying necessary.

In fact, I am so convinced of this, that for the rest of the summer, I'm not even going to attempt to add weight to my X-Force sessions. I'm not even going to train to positive failure. I'm going to set my watch for one minute, and stop the set on the last complete negative after the beep. That's how convinced I am of the inherent value of the negative work.

We'll see if I'm completely atrophied by Labor Day.
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marcrph

Portugal

Bill DeSimone wrote:

All other "set intensifier techniques" extend the set: forced reps, pre-exhaust, breakdowns, total inroad etc. More painful, but not harder. Incorporating harder negatives within the set makes the set harder.


You left out one:

Rest Pause

Yep

Rest pause negatives

Simply the hardest
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jitterbug

Bill De Simone wrote:
From another, far-too-long and off-track thread:

"Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
DSears wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:


No one who has been training smart and hard and who eats nutritiously makes "great gains" after a few years of training - unless - they are taking T or HGH or stronger stuff.

Sorry!

And let's face it, people LIE through their teeth about a lot of stuff especially when it comes to training/eaitng.

Fred,

Dr. Darden reported that he and Joe Cirulli are both up about 8-10 pounds in muscle from doing X-Force. Both men are in their 60's with long training histories.

Bill DeSimone reported that he's up about 5 pounds from X-Force. Bill's not as old as the other two but he's definitely not a novice trainer.

I would consider Dr. Darden and Bill to be credible sources. What is your opinion on their claims to having made great gains as advanced trainees? T or HGH? Regaining muscle?

Well...I find it difficult to beleive that these men have gained that much muscle that quickly. BUT I know these men and they would not lie. Too bad there is no documentation though.

"Too bad there is no documentation though"
So we're not lying, but without documentation we're...what?
Sorry I'm not up to your standards, Fred.
Yes, that was sarcastic.

****Yeah, yeah. What would have been very cool is Darden quality comparison pix of each of you. And a DEXA reading.

But here's what I think - the added poundage using XF is probably what caused the increased lean mass. This is what I have experienced going from SS to SB. "
##

Here's what I think: there's a valid training point to be made here, so that I'm pulling this passage out of that mess of a thread. Unfortunately, not the final one Seriousstrength/Fred made.

For the record, Roger Schwab also reports similar gains. Which means, according to the last paragraph, the 4 of us, with about 200 cumulative years of training experience, couldn't figure out "added poundage" what was missing in our training prior to X-Force. Gee, thanks, flattered, I'm sure.

First of all, as discussed on this board a while back, whether you actually use more poundage on an X-Force weight stack, compared to a conventional stack, is very much debatable. And the conclusion, if I remember correctly, was that you couldn't relate the two types of stacks, that X-Force was a different kind of exercise.

Second, the problems with "adding poundage" in general, for an experienced trainee,are the strain on the joints and all the postural cheats that creep in. So while one might be able to stack a machine, the hitches, shrugs, squirming, lockouts, all put the load on the joints and not the targeted muscles. I prefer not to train that way. No, "added poundage" doesn't account for any changes from X-Force.

The difference between X-Force (and 30-30-30/N-P-N) and all other forms of training is the extra intensity, that comes from re-emphasizing the negative. I don't want to steal Dr. Darden's thunder and speculate on exactly the mechanism. But in terms I'm comfortable with as a trainer: a given set on X-Force (and 30-etc.) is inherently harder than the same TUL, reps, etc. on conventional equipment. All other "set intensifier techniques" extend the set: forced reps, pre-exhaust, breakdowns, total inroad etc. More painful, but not harder. Incorporating harder negatives within the set makes the set harder. 10 reps, failing on 11 on X-Force, is harder than 10 reps, fail on 11 on every other device. More effort, more depletion, more result.
No T, growth hormone, or lying necessary.

In fact, I am so convinced of this, that for the rest of the summer, I'm not even going to attempt to add weight to my X-Force sessions. I'm not even going to train to positive failure. I'm going to set my watch for one minute, and stop the set on the last complete negative after the beep. That's how convinced I am of the inherent value of the negative work.

We'll see if I'm completely atrophied by Labor Day.


Mr.De Simone,

Are there any photographs of these substantial muscle gains.

Ed
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marcrph

Portugal

jitterbug wrote:
Mr.De Simone,

Are there any photographs of these substantial muscle gains.

Ed


Josh

Don't you need to moderate the traffic of thousands of viewers on your Pay-for-view site?
I would think you would not have any time for anything else, other than snack on a few raw chickens out behind the renex woodshed.
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cmg

Hello Bill,

I look forward to seeing your results! I believe you workout once a week - just curious if you've tried more frequent?

I am going to try to incorporate more of the (30-30-30) or even try to lower the time to 20-20-20 and evaluate.

Thank you!

Ron
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

jitterbug wrote:
Mr.De Simone,

Are there any photographs of these substantial muscle gains.

Ed


Eddie,

Please go get a dictionary and look-up:
* Past
* Present
* Future

Then, get a grammar book and study "verb tense".

These two exercises should help greatly with your reading comprehension.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
Eddie,

Please go get a dictionary and look-up:
* Past
* Present
* Future

Then, get a grammar book and study "verb tense".

These two exercises should help greatly with your reading comprehension.


Scott,
you've left out the most relevant training tense, present passing:

* Presently

Bill DeSimone wrote:
The difference between X-Force (and 30-30-30/N-P-N) and all other forms of training is the extra intensity, that comes from re-emphasizing the negative. I don't want to steal Dr. Darden's thunder and speculate on exactly the mechanism.

Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Tomislav wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
Eddie,

Please go get a dictionary and look-up:
* Past
* Present
* Future

Then, get a grammar book and study "verb tense".

These two exercises should help greatly with your reading comprehension.

Scott,
you've left out the most relevant training tense, present passing:

* Presently

Bill DeSimone wrote:
The difference between X-Force (and 30-30-30/N-P-N) and all other forms of training is the extra intensity, that comes from re-emphasizing the negative. I don't want to steal Dr. Darden's thunder and speculate on exactly the mechanism.

Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?

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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

I'd say the gains are from the newness, reduced cheating and tapping into unused and/or fibres which haven't had to work in a long time (because skill/cheating increased over time).

Bill you know that I'll say you'll go flat making no change so I am interested to see. BTW great coverage of The HIT floor at Main Line Health and Fitness.

Regards,
Andrew
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

cmg wrote:
Hello Bill,

I look forward to seeing your results! I believe you workout once a week - just curious if you've tried more frequent?

I am going to try to incorporate more of the (30-30-30) or even try to lower the time to 20-20-20 and evaluate.

Thank you!

Ron


Ron, once/week for the whole body workout, which for me going to Pa is the most practical. I would consider splitting the workout across two or three sessions in a week, in some ways that might work better.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

AShortt wrote:
I'd say the gains are from the newness, reduced cheating and tapping into unused and/or fibres which haven't had to work in a long time (because skill/cheating increased over time).

Bill you know that I'll say you'll go flat making no change so I am interested to see. BTW great coverage of The HIT floor at Main Line Health and Fitness.

Regards,
Andrew


I only disagree with every single thing in your first paragraph, so thanks for keeping it shortt. Hah!
Did not do justice to Roger's place, much more than I showed.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?

[/quote]

Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.


===Scott==
Like I think I've said before, there's Ell, Brian and you Bill. After than well,,,,,,,,,
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

A review, questioning the importance of the role that muscle damage actually plays in muscle hypertrophy during eccentric exercise:

Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/22876722

Actual paper:

http://www.medizin.uni-tuebing...
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.


****Well that's not a very positive thing to say about oneself...

Did you gain on the scale?

If you didn't, then you also dieted to lose 8 pounds of fat at the same time in order for you to gain the 8 pounds of lean mass. You said it was 8 right or am I wrong?
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Wrong, on so many levels.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Wrong, on so many levels.


****How so? Did I mess up the facts? You said you gained lean mass didn't you? How much? How do you know?
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.


Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.
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Dan Davidson

Connecticut, USA

entsminger wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.

===Scott==
Like I think I've said before, there's Ell, Brian and you Bill. After than well,,,,,,,,,


Scott, Not sure why you think snide comments are justified here but Tomi and Fred are right on the money.

Scott, I know you like to think there's "magic" in machines, look how long you sucked up and wanted to believe in SS/Renex. It was kind of sad until you listened to me and stopped. I hate to break it to you but it's the heavier weight/heavier negatives that's putting muscle on these guys....just like Tomi and Fred are saying....
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Dan Davidson

Connecticut, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.


Bill, as the man of exercise science that you purportedly are, I'm surprised at your response to Fred.

If it was ok for everyone to make unsubstantiated claims about their "ultimate exercise protocol", I guess we'd all be doing SS/Renex.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.


****I am not making demands. If I said I gained 8 pounds of muscle in a few months doing something different you'd just say "Hey great!"?

What is so wrong with me asking for evidence? So DID you gain any scale weight? How did you measure the added mass?
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.

****I am not making demands. If I said I gained 8 pounds of muscle in a few months doing something different you'd just say "Hey great!"?

What is so wrong with me asking for evidence? So DID you gain any scale weight? How did you measure the added mass?


I won't be jumping through your hoops here or anywhere else.
I've just put a video up of Roger's biceps workout today for those who are interested.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Dan Davidson wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.

===Scott==
Like I think I've said before, there's Ell, Brian and you Bill. After than well,,,,,,,,,

Scott, Not sure why you think snide comments are justified here but Tomi and Fred are right on the money.

Scott, I know you like to think there's "magic" in machines, look how long you sucked up and wanted to believe in SS/Renex. It was kind of sad until you listened to me and stopped. I hate to break it to you but it's the heavier weight/heavier negatives that's putting muscle on these guys....just like Tomi and Fred are saying....


Dan,

I would not bother with what Scott says on here.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.

****I am not making demands. If I said I gained 8 pounds of muscle in a few months doing something different you'd just say "Hey great!"?

What is so wrong with me asking for evidence? So DID you gain any scale weight? How did you measure the added mass?

I won't be jumping through your hoops here or anywhere else.
I've just put a video up of Roger's biceps workout today for those who are interested.


****Jumping through my hoops? Wow. Really??? I take this to mean you THINK you MIGHT have gained some added mass using XForce but maybe not. The fact that you got so pissy about this is a tell tale sign of uncertainty.

Alternate scenario: "Hey everyone! Slow Burn HSets put 8 pounds of muscle on me in 4 workouts!

Really Fred? How do you know? Did you gain weight? Are your circumference measurements bigger? Did you do a DEXA?

Say what? You doubt me? WTF? Hey, I'm not jumping through any hoops for you assholes! Brian Johnston is right!"
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