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entsminger

Virginia, USA

kulitsa wrote:
Dan Davidson wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.

===Scott==
Like I think I've said before, there's Ell, Brian and you Bill. After than well,,,,,,,,,

Scott, Not sure why you think snide comments are justified here but Tomi and Fred are right on the money.

Scott, I know you like to think there's "magic" in machines, look how long you sucked up and wanted to believe in SS/Renex. It was kind of sad until you listened to me and stopped. I hate to break it to you but it's the heavier weight/heavier negatives that's putting muscle on these guys....just like Tomi and Fred are saying....

Dan,

I would not bother with what Scott says on here.


==Scott==
I love my Nautilus machines but I have never said they are the golden chalice to gaining muscle. I Believe that these X-Force machines and even barbells and dumbells could provide as well if not better workouts than Nautilus or REN-EX or whatever machines. I just prefer to use my machines.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
Great results Bill! Seems to me you're getting them from the additional load; X-Force doesn't just emphasise the negative but a much heavier than normal negative, to speculate on the mechanism :)


This is what I said in the other thread. Bill and the rest are now under a greater LOAD than they were before. It's not XForce per se.

Up your weight loads so that you get as few as three reps till you hit failure - so heavy that on good equipment you couldn't move the weight up in 2 seconds if your life depended upon it and you'll grow muscle.

Like I said, I don't think that Bill or Ell are lying BUT it would be nice to see some pix.

Ah well...

Now the question is, after adding 8 pounds of lean tissue, how much more will you build?

Bill - did you gain 8 pounds on the scale?



Suddenly, I can relate to Brian Johnston.

****Well that's not a very positive thing to say about oneself...

Did you gain on the scale?

If you didn't, then you also dieted to lose 8 pounds of fat at the same time in order for you to gain the 8 pounds of lean mass. You said it was 8 right or am I wrong?


===Scott==
So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his?? I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum.

The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have.
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DukeMatisse

Bill De Simone wrote:
cmg wrote:
Hello Bill,

I look forward to seeing your results! I believe you workout once a week - just curious if you've tried more frequent?

I am going to try to incorporate more of the (30-30-30) or even try to lower the time to 20-20-20 and evaluate.

Thank you!

Ron

Ron, once/week for the whole body workout, which for me going to Pa is the most practical. I would consider splitting the workout across two or three sessions in a week, in some ways that might work better.


How would your split look if the gym were across the street?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA


Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.


Dan Davidson wrote:
Bill, as the man of exercise science that you purportedly are, I'm surprised at your response to Fred.

If it was ok for everyone to make unsubstantiated claims about their "ultimate exercise protocol", I guess we'd all be doing SS/Renex.


It's lucky he gives ANY response. Bill has demonstrated time and again that he's a guy of utmost integrity and forthright declarations.

If he wants to take umbrage at being cross-examined and interrogated, he has every right.

If he makes a claim, I believe him.

He's certainly lean enough to REALLY be able to tell if something is working.

Scott
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

"So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his??"

***I think we probably have about the same know how give or take a satellite cell or two.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

"The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have."

****How in the hell would you know that? What kind of a statement is that anyway? Who really cares? What kind of a useful comparison is that?

That said, you'd be surprised then about what I know.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:

Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Listen gentlemen - if your going to make claims about growing a good deal of muscle in our old age after training for decades, you have to admit it's not unwarranted to ask questions about how much, how do you know, etc.

Listen, Fred - if I wanted to deal with your demands, I'd post on your board. And I haven't been there in years.


Dan Davidson wrote:
Bill, as the man of exercise science that you purportedly are, I'm surprised at your response to Fred.

If it was ok for everyone to make unsubstantiated claims about their "ultimate exercise protocol", I guess we'd all be doing SS/Renex.

It's lucky he gives ANY response. Bill has demonstrated time and again that he's a guy of utmost integrity and forthright declarations.

If he wants to take umbrage at being cross-examined and interrogated, he has every right.

If he makes a claim, I believe him.

He's certainly lean enough to REALLY be able to tell if something is working.

Scott


****No one cross examined anyone. What is wrong with asking someone how they know that they built 8 new pounds of muscle?

If I were asked, I'd say. I'd welcome the request. I'd feel good about divulging the information. WTF not? What's the big deal?

Jesus H. El Darden does BF% and muscle gain calculations with skin fold and body weight.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
"So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his??"

***I think we probably have about the same know how give or take a satellite cell or two.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

"The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have."

****How in the hell would you know that? What kind of a statement is that anyway? Who really cares? What kind of a useful comparison is that?

That said, you'd be surprised then about what I know.


"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

==Scott==
What I mean is that I've had some personality clashes in the past with Brian, heck I can as stubborn and hard to deal with as the next guy, but I put him and Ell and Bill in a class of experts that ranges far above "most" of us guys on here, especially myself.It just seems silly to continually argue with Brian when it's clear the guy really knows his stuff.
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NewYorker

New York, USA

entsminger wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
"So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his??"

***I think we probably have about the same know how give or take a satellite cell or two.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

"The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have."

****How in the hell would you know that? What kind of a statement is that anyway? Who really cares? What kind of a useful comparison is that?

That said, you'd be surprised then about what I know.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

==Scott==
What I mean is that I've had some personality clashes in the past with Brian, heck I can as stubborn and hard to deal with as the next guy, but I put him and Ell and Bill in a class of experts that ranges far above "most" of us guys on here, especially myself.It just seems silly to continually argue with Brian when it's clear the guy really knows his stuff.


How have Brian's posts benefited your training?
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NewYorker

New York, USA

I believe that X-Force studies and protocols have been published on this site. To me, that is useful.

Perhaps we can get back to useful knowledge sharing and stop with the sales team nonsense.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

NewYorker wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
"So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his??"

***I think we probably have about the same know how give or take a satellite cell or two.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

"The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have."

****How in the hell would you know that? What kind of a statement is that anyway? Who really cares? What kind of a useful comparison is that?

That said, you'd be surprised then about what I know.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

==Scott==
What I mean is that I've had some personality clashes in the past with Brian, heck I can as stubborn and hard to deal with as the next guy, but I put him and Ell and Bill in a class of experts that ranges far above "most" of us guys on here, especially myself.It just seems silly to continually argue with Brian when it's clear the guy really knows his stuff.

How have Brian's posts benefited your training?


==Scott==
I wish I had a good enough memory to tell you exactly what Brians or Ells or Bills or even Arthurs thinking have benefited my training but I don't. I do know that many a question I've asked my self ( but not all)were answered in one way or another in many of their writings.It's obvious that I am a skeptic of just about anything but I have come to feel that these three guys are head over heals over most of the rest of us when it comes to muscle building and I'm talking the world, not just this site.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

DukeMatisse wrote:

Ron, once/week for the whole body workout, which for me going to Pa is the most practical. I would consider splitting the workout across two or three sessions in a week, in some ways that might work better.


How would your split look if the gym were across the street?


I like Dr. Darden's split from a few years ago: chest & back, legs, shoulders & arms, trunk.

Now, specifically if I lived across the street from MLHF: wow, where to start.
To the X-Force I'd add:
Nautilus Hip Extension.
Medx Seated Calf.
Hammer Tib.
Occasionally substitute the Medx Pullover.
30-30-30 Chins.
Nautilus Row (rear delt, not the compound movement).
The Omni Chest Press, 30-30-30 style.
Nitro elbows up Biceps and Triceps.
Nautilus Super Gripper, the 5-way machine.
Medx Hip Abd & Add.
Medx Lumbar and Neck Extension, Rotary torso.

Of course, Roger has a couple of different vintage of each of these, so I'd never get out of there.

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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:

I like Dr. Darden's split from a few years ago: chest & back, legs, shoulders & arms, trunk.

Now, specifically if I lived across the street from MLHF: wow, where to start.
To the X-Force I'd add:
Nautilus Hip Extension.
Medx Seated Calf.
Hammer Tib.
Occasionally substitute the Medx Pullover.
30-30-30 Chins.
Nautilus Row (rear delt, not the compound movement).
The Omni Chest Press, 30-30-30 style.
Nitro elbows up Biceps and Triceps.
Nautilus Super Gripper, the 5-way machine.
Medx Hip Abd & Add.
Medx Lumbar and Neck Extension, Rotary torso.

Of course, Roger has a couple of different vintage of each of these, so I'd never get out of there.



Bill is on to something here. By mixing up X-Force and other machines, the result might be much better than by just working out once a week, using X-Force only.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

entsminger wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
"So let me ask you this Fred, since you keep going back and forth with Brian are you putting your knowledge of building muscle over his??"

***I think we probably have about the same know how give or take a satellite cell or two.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

"The rest of the guys on here ( and I may have missed one or two like Michael and David) are fun to converse with and have some some great ideas now and then and do posses some experience but nothing close to the knowledge and experience those three have."

****How in the hell would you know that? What kind of a statement is that anyway? Who really cares? What kind of a useful comparison is that?

That said, you'd be surprised then about what I know.

"I've had my spats with Brian but mostly on small potatoes issues like personality clashes, not about what he knows. I stand by my "snide" comment about there's Ell, there's Brian and then there's Bill on this forum."

****I don't even know what you mean by that.

==Scott==
What I mean is that I've had some personality clashes in the past with Brian, heck I can as stubborn and hard to deal with as the next guy, but I put him and Ell and Bill in a class of experts that ranges far above "most" of us guys on here, especially myself.It just seems silly to continually argue with Brian when it's clear the guy really knows his stuff.


****First of all this is not your field. It is mine. And arguing with people who are your peers is how you learn, or unlearn, and have a bit of fun to boot. I too really know my stuff. More than you realize. But enough about me...

Put it to you this way, if a pair of identical obese, out of shaoe twins were trained, one by me and one by Brian, if given ample time (say 6 months), the results would be virtually identical. I think given my approach to nutrition, I'd probably have my twin leaner. But as far as gaining muscle, no difference.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
DukeMatisse wrote:

Ron, once/week for the whole body workout, which for me going to Pa is the most practical. I would consider splitting the workout across two or three sessions in a week, in some ways that might work better.


How would your split look if the gym were across the street?

I like Dr. Darden's split from a few years ago: chest & back, legs, shoulders & arms, trunk.

Now, specifically if I lived across the street from MLHF: wow, where to start.
To the X-Force I'd add:
Nautilus Hip Extension.
Medx Seated Calf.
Hammer Tib.
Occasionally substitute the Medx Pullover.
30-30-30 Chins.
Nautilus Row (rear delt, not the compound movement).
The Omni Chest Press, 30-30-30 style.
Nitro elbows up Biceps and Triceps.
Nautilus Super Gripper, the 5-way machine.
Medx Hip Abd & Add.
Medx Lumbar and Neck Extension, Rotary torso.

Of course, Roger has a couple of different vintage of each of these, so I'd never get out of there.




****I'm assuming you say this because XForce doesn't make those machines correct?

And you're not going to say how you measured lean gains? Really???
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Just so everyone knows, my good friend Roger Schwabb texted me yesterday and politely explaind that he determined his gains using a Tanita machine. It had him 5 pounds up on the scale and the same BF%.

Viola!

I have a Bioanalogics device that I use to determine body composition. It has my lean mass up a couple of pounds over the course of ~6 months. But since body water fluctuates a lot, it's tough to know. You really need a DEXA.

Why was this such a hard question to answer? What's the big freaking deal here?

And if one only trains once a week AND alters the mode of training, how does one know that it was the new mode and not the added recovery of only training once a week - or both?

I do believe the heavier load in the negative was the reason for any gains made.

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
Just so everyone knows, my good friend Roger Schwabb texted me yesterday and politely explaind that he determined his gains using a Tanita machine. It had him 5 pounds up on the scale and the same BF%.

Viola!

I have a Bioanalogics device that I use to determine body composition. It has my lean mass up a couple of pounds over the course of ~6 months. But since body water fluctuates a lot, it's tough to know. You really need a DEXA.

Why was this such a hard question to answer? What's the big freaking deal here?

And if one only trains once a week AND alters the mode of training, how does one know that it was the new mode and not the added recovery of only training once a week - or both?

I do believe the heavier load in the negative was the reason for any gains made.


The big problem, Freddo, is playing to a hostile audience. I think Bill knew (as I fully realized having been a spectator to your antics these last few months), that no matter what he said you were going to find ways to try and poke holes in it.

He never claimed it was a fully realized study. It was simply his observations on his own Experiment of One.

Yet you were bird-dogging his posts waiting with your pre-selected quiver of potshot arrows.
_________________

I'd ask for the charts and graphs on your subjective BS claims about your make believe training-the-twins comparison to Brian on the other thread, but then I'd be guilty of acting just like you.

Scott
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jitterbug

Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Just so everyone knows, my good friend Roger Schwabb texted me yesterday and politely explaind that he determined his gains using a Tanita machine. It had him 5 pounds up on the scale and the same BF%.

Viola!

I have a Bioanalogics device that I use to determine body composition. It has my lean mass up a couple of pounds over the course of ~6 months. But since body water fluctuates a lot, it's tough to know. You really need a DEXA.

Why was this such a hard question to answer? What's the big freaking deal here?

And if one only trains once a week AND alters the mode of training, how does one know that it was the new mode and not the added recovery of only training once a week - or both?

I do believe the heavier load in the negative was the reason for any gains made.

The big problem, Freddo, is playing to a hostile audience. I think Bill knew (as I fully realized having been a spectator to your antics these last few months), that no matter what he said you were going to find ways to try and poke holes in it.

He never claimed it was a fully realized study. It was simply his observations on his own Experiment of One.

Yet you were bird-dogging his posts waiting with your pre-selected quiver of potshot arrows.
_________________

I'd ask for the charts and graphs on your subjective BS claims about your make believe training-the-twins comparison to Brian on the other thread, but then I'd be guilty of acting just like you.

Scott


Thank you. Yes.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed


Video of Roger is at the end of this blog
http://congruentexercise.blogs...

Video of me from August 2012 (Congruent Exercises Demonstrated) and through March 2013 is at youtube.com/congruentexercise.

The Main Line Health & Fitness page also has recent videos of each of us, as do the respective Facebook pages.
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cmg

Bill De Simone wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Video of Roger is at the end of this blog
http://congruentexercise.blogs...

Video of me from August 2012 (Congruent Exercises Demonstrated) and through March 2013 is at youtube.com/congruentexercise.

The Main Line Health & Fitness page also has recent videos of each of us, as do the respective Facebook pages.



Great site -

Thank you!

Ron
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed


Let's start with yours!
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jitterbug

simon-hecubus wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Let's start with yours!


Mr.simon-hecubus,

The next time I gain 8 pounds of muscle in a few months you bet I'll have pictures of before and after. I think there is good reason these photos don't exist.

Ed
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

The thing is, if you're not expecting to gain 8 pounds of muscle (you simply wanted to experience the equipment and training method with no expectations), then you wouldn't take the initiative to take a proper 'before' photo to compare with a duplicate 'after' photo. Thus, sometimes we're limited to comparison photos that may not be identical in lighting, positioning, etc.

Regardless, one tries his or her best to accommodate when possible, and Bill posted some video and photos to give some suggestions. As well, 8 pounds over the entire body is not like a 'night and day' steroid cycle of obviousness. But 8 pounds on a body part is very noticeable.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

jitterbug wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Let's start with yours!

Mr.simon-hecubus,

The next time I gain 8 pounds of muscle in a few months you bet I'll have pictures of before and after. I think there is good reason these photos don't exist.

Ed


===Scott==
Maybe I've missed the photo's you've posted in the past of yourself and if so I apologize but what's stopping you from posting pictures of yourself 8 pounds of gain or not??
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Ellington Darden

I've got a good eye for muscular growth. I recognized it immediately when I saw Roger Schwab in December 2012. Roger's upper arms were significantly larger . . . than when I visited with him in July of 2012.

Ellington
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