MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
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Bob Marchesello
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Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
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Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
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Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

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X-Force and Muscle Gain
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jitterbug

Brian Johnston wrote:
The thing is, if you're not expecting to gain 8 pounds of muscle (you simply wanted to experience the equipment and training method with no expectations), then you wouldn't take the initiative to take a proper 'before' photo to compare with a duplicate 'after' photo. Thus, sometimes we're limited to comparison photos that may not be identical in lighting, positioning, etc.

Regardless, one tries his or her best to accommodate when possible, and Bill posted some video and photos to give some suggestions. As well, 8 pounds over the entire body is not like a 'night and day' steroid cycle of obviousness. But 8 pounds on a body part is very noticeable.



Mr.Johnston,

8 Pounds of muscle is a huge gain and would be very noticeable.

Ed
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

That depends on the individual. If you've worked with as many people as I have, it may not be that big a deal on some people. Check out the photo of Chris Madaera along the side column of this forum... that 9 pounds of muscle and only a bit of difference in overall shape, etc. You take someone who already is developed, that 9 pounds would not be as noticeable as someone who is thin and new to weight training. And some people carry it differently. It's an issue of individualism and not a blanket statement.
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HamsFitness

Brian Johnston wrote:
That depends on the individual. If you've worked with as many people as I have, it may not be that big a deal on some people. Check out the photo of Chris Madaera along the side column of this forum... that 9 pounds of muscle and only a bit of difference in overall shape, etc. You take someone who already is developed, that 9 pounds would not be as noticeable as someone who is thin and new to weight training. And some people carry it differently. It's an issue of individualism and not a blanket statement.


Have to agree here.

I regularly have people grow between 5-10lbs of muscle yet fail to be happy because they don't look like a cover model yet!
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
That depends on the individual. If you've worked with as many people as I have, it may not be that big a deal on some people. Check out the photo of Chris Madaera along the side column of this forum... that 9 pounds of muscle and only a bit of difference in overall shape, etc. You take someone who already is developed, that 9 pounds would not be as noticeable as someone who is thin and new to weight training. And some people carry it differently. It's an issue of individualism and not a blanket statement.


****The picture of Chris Madera looks as if he got fatter. He lost his abs. I seriously doubt he gained 9 pounds of muscle.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Video of Roger is at the end of this blog
http://congruentexercise.blogs...

Video of me from August 2012 (Congruent Exercises Demonstrated) and through March 2013 is at youtube.com/congruentexercise.

The Main Line Health & Fitness page also has recent videos of each of us, as do the respective Facebook pages.


****What I notice watching Roger train are very slow negatives which I do *feel* are the most productive way to train. This is why I think using good, conventional equipment using loads that only allow for 3-4 total reps gives you that heavy negative, absent in RenX and SuperSlow protocols.

Funny how they did nothing different ITO training - just a bit heavier negative and look at the gains made (assuming this is true). No need for variation, shock, periodization, jreps or anything else. Just a heavier load.

But also remember that XForce robs the positive to add to the negative so even though the negative is heavier than normal, the positive load is lighter than it would normally be for the same reps.

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HeavyHitter32

Seriousstrength wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Video of Roger is at the end of this blog
http://congruentexercise.blogs...

Video of me from August 2012 (Congruent Exercises Demonstrated) and through March 2013 is at youtube.com/congruentexercise.

The Main Line Health & Fitness page also has recent videos of each of us, as do the respective Facebook pages.

****What I notice watching Roger train are very slow negatives which I do *feel* are the most productive way to train. This is why I think using good, conventional equipment using loads that only allow for 3-4 total reps gives you that heavy negative, absent in RenX and SuperSlow protocols.


What kind of rep cadence are you suggest with these 3-4 reps?
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natemason5

Ontario, CAN

I'm positive that Chris gained 9 lbs of muscle. Why would I be on Dr.D's site if I didn't?

Nate
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:

****What I notice watching Roger train are very slow negatives which I do *feel* are the most productive way to train. This is why I think using good, conventional equipment using loads that only allow for 3-4 total reps gives you that heavy negative, absent in RenX and SuperSlow protocols.

Funny how they did nothing different ITO training - just a bit heavier negative and look at the gains made (assuming this is true). No need for variation, shock, periodization, jreps or anything else. Just a heavier load.

But also remember that XForce robs the positive to add to the negative so even though the negative is heavier than normal, the positive load is lighter than it would normally be for the same reps.



...did nothing different...assuming this is true...robs the positive...

More "damning with faint praise". You know what might be interesting? If you were ever in a room with X-Force equipment. Maybe even try a set or two, much less 6 months or two years as I,and Darden, and Cirulli, and Roger, and others have.
If everything you look at leads you to conclude "my approach has been right all along, and my approach is right yet again" why do you bother? Because it looks like the only person you're convincing is yourself.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Gentlemen,

Surely there must be photos?

Ed

Video of Roger is at the end of this blog
http://congruentexercise.blogs...

Video of me from August 2012 (Congruent Exercises Demonstrated) and through March 2013 is at youtube.com/congruentexercise.

The Main Line Health & Fitness page also has recent videos of each of us, as do the respective Facebook pages.

****What I notice watching Roger train are very slow negatives which I do *feel* are the most productive way to train. This is why I think using good, conventional equipment using loads that only allow for 3-4 total reps gives you that heavy negative, absent in RenX and SuperSlow protocols.


What kind of rep cadence are you suggest with these 3-4 reps?


****It almost dictates itself - on good equipment that is. You start slow - on purpose - take a second or three to set in motion, gradually building up the force to overcome the load, then just keep it moving. Absorb the negative very slowly, 5+ seconds.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

natemason5 wrote:
I'm positive that Chris gained 9 lbs of muscle. Why would I be on Dr.D's site if I didn't?

Nate


****Are you? How do you know? Doesn't he look less lean in the after pic in the picture on the left? Lighting maybe? Maybe. Except for his pecs, the after looks like the before pic to me.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

"...did nothing different...assuming this is true...robs the positive... More "damning with faint praise"."

****Bill, you need to chill out. The fact that you are getting so hot under the collar and STILL refuse to tell us how you measured the gain is a tell tale sign. Roger had no problem telling me how he measured his gains.

"You know what might be interesting? If you were ever in a room with X-Force equipment. Maybe even try a set or two, much less 6 months or two years as I,and Darden, and Cirulli, and Roger, and others have."

***I HAVE tried them. And I think that they are pretty cool devices. Do I think I would ADD 5-10 pounds of muscle using them over what I use now? No I do not.

"If everything you look at leads you to conclude "my approach has been right all along, and my approach is right yet again" why do you bother? Because it looks like the only person you're convincing is yourself."

****Don't be so testy. And snarky. BUT if the added mass you enjoy is due to the XForce machines alone - I guess you'll be retrofitting your studio? IDEA: You could use those flippity-do ropes you have clients undulate to hang a new sign out front!
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Ellington Darden

Fred,

Chris did build 9 pounds of muscle. You can get a better look at him if you go back to the opening page . . . and click into the article, "Father and Son Commitment," under my Intensive Coaching section. Then, follow the material for two pages and you'll see some better shots of Chris.

Ellington
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Fred,

Chris did build 9 pounds of muscle. You can get a better look at him if you go back to the opening page . . . and click into the article, "Father and Son Commitment," under my Intensive Coaching section. Then, follow the material for two pages and you'll see some better shots of Chris.

Ellington


Thanks doc! I'll take a look.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!


****Why do so many people blame others for their own emotional choices? Very strange.

Never once did I say anything to antagonize on purpose. I try to think like a scientist (without being one by trade). If someone says "Fred! Great news!! X did Y!" I will say/ask: "Great! How do you know? How did you test this?"

If you take that response as antagonistic, then you don't have the *heart* of a scientist. If you take it personally, well, then you need to take a good look at yourself.

Your feelings are your own. Take some responsibility. Stop pointing fingers at others. Learn how to judge a simple conversation properly.
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Mr. Strong

simon-hecubus wrote:
That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!






But your in favour of childish name calling?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Use of different equipment, a different protocol, different loading procedures... but nothing different. LOL. Brilliant!
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cmg

Fred,

Andy McCuthenson (?) was reported to be 6' tall and approximately 7% bf at approximately 190 lbs. That being the case - if he were still fairly lean and about 12-15% bodyfat - he would be over 200 lbs. He was also reported over 40 years old. I am not sure what he looks like now but he probably is around 46-48 years old.

He looks great but his legs are not very big and his upper body is not exactly massive.

It is very possible to be over 200 lbs, and be fairly lean.

Regards,

Ron
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

cmg wrote:

It is very possible to be over 200 lbs, and be fairly lean.

Regards,

Ron


Ron,

Very few UFC fighters are fairly lean in light heavy weight division (which is 205 lbs top) even fewer are lean in heavyweight division. In any case those guys are usually taller than 6 feet.

Among bodybuilders there will be even fewer. I know a bunch of guys here in NYC who sport anywhere between 17 to 18" biceps but they also have a 38-40" waists to pair with those. So Ahnuld's 19" biceps and 34" waist combo (@ 230 lbs) is pretty much a fairy tale these days .
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Seriousstrength wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!

****Why do so many people blame others for their own emotional choices? Very strange.

Never once did I say anything to antagonize on purpose. I try to think like a scientist (without being one by trade). If someone says "Fred! Great news!! X did Y!" I will say/ask: "Great! How do you know? How did you test this?"

If you take that response as antagonistic, then you don't have the *heart* of a scientist. If you take it personally, well, then you need to take a good look at yourself.

Your feelings are your own. Take some responsibility. Stop pointing fingers at others. Learn how to judge a simple conversation properly.


Holy crap.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!


Mr. Strong wrote:
But your in favour of childish name calling?


Would you prefer: "A favorite technique of passive-agressive people the world over!"

No. Sorry. Just doesn't have the same 'Oomph' factor.

By the way, it's "you're", not "your". And it figures you'd chime in since you're the P-A Poster Child.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Seriousstrength wrote:
simon-hecubus wrote:
That's great, Fred. Antagonize people, and then when they get worked up, follow-up with a condescending statement:

"Hey man, what are you getting so bent out of shape about?"

A favorite technique of passive-agressive twats the world over!

****Why do so many people blame others for their own emotional choices? Very strange.

Never once did I say anything to antagonize on purpose. I try to think like a scientist (without being one by trade). If someone says "Fred! Great news!! X did Y!" I will say/ask: "Great! How do you know? How did you test this?"

If you take that response as antagonistic, then you don't have the *heart* of a scientist. If you take it personally, well, then you need to take a good look at yourself.

Your feelings are your own. Take some responsibility. Stop pointing fingers at others. Learn how to judge a simple conversation properly.

Holy crap.


****I know. All I asked was, how did you measure the gain in lean mass? Roger texted me back no problem. He did not get huffy or think I was trying to make him out to be a liar.

You, however, took it that way. And you want to blame ME for how YOU feel?

Holy crap indeed.
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Use of different equipment, a different protocol, different loading procedures... but nothing different. LOL. Brilliant!


What are you trying to say here?
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

"Would you prefer: "A favorite technique of passive-agressive people the world over!"

***Are you seriouisly asking this?

"No. Sorry. Just doesn't have the same 'Oomph' factor."

****The "oomph factor" has more to do with how calling people names when you're in your 50's makes YOU appear. It always hurts and weakens an argument.

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Tomislav

New York, USA

Scott,
X-Force is interesting and so are the ideas about it; why not discuss them instead of making less interesting posts?

Interesting Idea:

Does X-Force "rob the positive"?

Since more substrate is consumed on the heavier negative there are going to be less total reps so that is one way to look at it; yet more intense muscular contractions yield more growth (indeed that's what we are seeing) so is this factor a negative?

What if it were possible to calibrate the X-Force machine to lift the positive (no positive at all) in addition to providing a heavier negative - might we see even better results or a decrease?
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