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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
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This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

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X-Force and Muscle Gain
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gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

Mr. Strong wrote:
Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?


You can't possibly believe that your form remains exactly consistent from rep 1 to the final rep. Brian is not talking about a complete breakdown of form, just that there will be small bodily adjustments due to the fatiguing of various muscle groups throughout the exercise.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

You squat for 6 inches, Tom... frig... I can do that too. I'm talking about REAL SQUATS... actual squats with some ROM that takes you to 90-degrees minimum. If I was talking about partial rep squats, I would say 'partial rep squats.'
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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Tomislov... he's claiming his ability to squat in such a way that I've never seen it. I would like to see it. I would be very impressed to see it (sans a 50 pound bar for 8 reps). I am stating out right that it is IMPOSSIBLE to close in toward fatigue (9 or so out of 10 in effort) in the squat without a change in form... of shifting from thighs to butt and low back.

In fact, THAT is what makes squats so effective over leg presses... the shifting of tension throughout the quads as fatigue sinks in. With a leg press, you stay locked in position, but with squats you can work more muscle simply because YOU CAN alter positioning as the tissues fatigue (thus bringing into play more tissue).


****In your opinion. And what proof do you have that squats are better than leg presses?
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HeavyHitter32

Mr. Strong wrote:



Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?


Do you not understand that each muscle in the squat is not being fatigued equally?
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gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

Tomislav wrote:
Really? Well I don't alter positioning, never break form; first rep is no different than the 30th:

Actually, I see multiple "reps" in your video where your body weight is shifted slightly more forward than others, as well as, many reps that are more shallow in depth.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Tomislov,

you call THAT performing regular squats?? You're kidding right?? You're going to use THIS video to prove your point about not having to break form??

Why don't you try doing the same with less weight, and going down to 90 degrees flexion or lower? Go to close to failure and THEN we can witness your form not changing at all from first to last.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

gmlongo wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

You can't possibly believe that your form remains exactly consistent from rep 1 to the final rep. Brian is not talking about a complete breakdown of form, just that there will be small bodily adjustments due to the fatiguing of various muscle groups throughout the exercise.


Complete straw man argument on his part.

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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Here's a question for you all to ponder over... if variation is the key to hypertrophy, then MAYBE the XForce machines and their greater negative had not a thing to do with the added hypertrophy that Bill, Ell and Roger experienced. Maybe it was simply the change - the variation - to a new stimulus that caused the gain.

Had they varied to do something else rather than XForce, perhaps their gains would have been the same - or even better.

AND if variation is key, then how many sessions on them will it take before the XForce machines no longer stimulate any muscle gains?

Or am I just being acutely obtuse?

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Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Tomislov... he's claiming his ability to squat in such a way that I've never seen it. I would like to see it. I would be very impressed to see it (sans a 50 pound bar for 8 reps). I am stating out right that it is IMPOSSIBLE to close in toward fatigue (9 or so out of 10 in effort) in the squat without a change in form... of shifting from thighs to butt and low back.

In fact, THAT is what makes squats so effective over leg presses... the shifting of tension throughout the quads as fatigue sinks in. With a leg press, you stay locked in position, but with squats you can work more muscle simply because YOU CAN alter positioning as the tissues fatigue (thus bringing into play more tissue).


***And now it seems shifting your body around in an exercise is a good thing! How many times have you, Brian and Andrew chastised and made fun of me and others for shifting around in an exercise like biceps curls.

My oh my.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

farhad wrote:
Tomislov,

...Why don't you try doing the same with less weight, and going down to 90 degrees flexion or lower?


farhad,
talk about breaking form! I know you have blinders but shouldn't you be admonishing yourself for misspelling my name? :)

With the legs close together and feet parallel, you can't go much deeper than this - it is close to 90 degrees but we weren't talking about ROM.

gm,
you're seeing something Brian and I don't; this is interesting. Could you take a pic of the stills to illustrate side by side where the break in form occurs?
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HeavyHitter32

Tomislav wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Tomislov... he's claiming his ability to squat in such a way that I've never seen it. I would like to see it. I would be very impressed to see it (sans a 50 pound bar for 8 reps). I am stating out right that it is IMPOSSIBLE to close in toward fatigue (9 or so out of 10 in effort) in the squat without a change in form... of shifting from thighs to butt and low back.

In fact, THAT is what makes squats so effective over leg presses... the shifting of tension throughout the quads as fatigue sinks in. With a leg press, you stay locked in position, but with squats you can work more muscle simply because YOU CAN alter positioning as the tissues fatigue (thus bringing into play more tissue).

Really? Well I don't alter positioning, never break form; first rep is no different than the 30th:

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=bsW8QXLB5oo

Like sprinting, this technique builds big wheels and lumbars ideal for explosive dashes where you can't alter positioning (and the ROM is even less).


Tomi,

You are performing something like a strong range or quarter squat. Different situation compared to full squats where different dynamics are happening with other muscle groups.
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indexit

Fred,

Those weren't the best before and after pictures with the angle, camera position, focal length and lighting not being totally the same. We all know how much the camera lies with this stuff.

Were those pictures taken pre work out or after work out?

Do you have two chest shots that are more similar?

Also do you have any SS leg pictures followed by SB pictures?

thanks,

jeff
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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
It's not form breakdown... it's position adjustment relative to fatigue. I'm not telling people to alter form to the point of injury... and you NEVER will post a video of what you are suggesting. So you might as well drop it. Heck, since you are a top strength coach, you could even videotape a client or someone demonstrating what you're talking about. Remember... taken from the side so that we can see there is ZERO change in ANY body part from start to end. Or do you recommend doing squats to a level 5 out of 10 in effort only? LOL




Its form breakdown. Call it what you like, still the same thing.
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Mr. Strong

gmlongo wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

You can't possibly believe that your form remains exactly consistent from rep 1 to the final rep. Brian is not talking about a complete breakdown of form, just that there will be small bodily adjustments due to the fatiguing of various muscle groups throughout the exercise.




So, do you suggest squatting beyond form breakdown? How much breakdown in form is good and when has it gone too far?

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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Tomislav wrote:
farhad wrote:
Tomislov,

...Why don't you try doing the same with less weight, and going down to 90 degrees flexion or lower?

farhad,
talk about breaking form! I know you have blinders but shouldn't you be admonishing yourself for misspelling my name? :)

With the legs close together and feet parallel, you can't go much deeper than this - it is close to 90 degrees but we weren't talking about ROM.

gm,
you're seeing something Brian and I don't; this is interesting. Could you take a pic of the stills to illustrate side by side where the break in form occurs?


Excellent point Tomislav!!!! My sincerest apologies for misspelling your name!!!!

You failed to understand my point. Your video does not prove anything, especially the claim that you can perform the 1st rep of a squat as perfectly as the last. Apples to apples sir. If you don't understand that, then I have no more to say. Have a wonderful evening!!!

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Mr. Strong

farhad wrote:
Tomislov,

you call THAT performing regular squats?? You're kidding right?? You're going to use THIS video to prove your point about not having to break form??

Why don't you try doing the same with less weight, and going down to 90 degrees flexion or lower? Go to close to failure and THEN we can witness your form not changing at all from first to last.




His form remained consistent. As he said it did. Might be partial squats, but then anything short of full squats are technically partial.

Lets say he can't squat deeper and maintain form would you suggest he break form to go deeper?

Why go close to failure?

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Mr. Strong

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Tomislov... he's claiming his ability to squat in such a way that I've never seen it. I would like to see it. I would be very impressed to see it (sans a 50 pound bar for 8 reps). I am stating out right that it is IMPOSSIBLE to close in toward fatigue (9 or so out of 10 in effort) in the squat without a change in form... of shifting from thighs to butt and low back.

In fact, THAT is what makes squats so effective over leg presses... the shifting of tension throughout the quads as fatigue sinks in. With a leg press, you stay locked in position, but with squats you can work more muscle simply because YOU CAN alter positioning as the tissues fatigue (thus bringing into play more tissue).

Really? Well I don't alter positioning, never break form; first rep is no different than the 30th:

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=bsW8QXLB5oo

Like sprinting, this technique builds big wheels and lumbars ideal for explosive dashes where you can't alter positioning (and the ROM is even less).


Tomi,

You are performing something like a strong range or quarter squat. Different situation compared to full squats where different dynamics are happening with other muscle groups.




Do you do full squats?
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Mr. Strong

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:



Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

Do you not understand that each muscle in the squat is not being fatigued equally?





But, do you suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
You squat for 6 inches, Tom... frig... I can do that too. I'm talking about REAL SQUATS... actual squats with some ROM that takes you to 90-degrees minimum. If I was talking about partial rep squats, I would say 'partial rep squats.'






If you can do that too why not show your version?

Is it fair for you to criticise others squat form? Based on what you have posted in this thread, it isn't.

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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Mr. Strong wrote:
So, do you suggest squatting beyond form breakdown? How much breakdown in form is good and when has it gone too far?



If you don't know the answer to that, then it is YOU who is ignorant on the matter. As for Fred, yes, you are obtuse, but here goes:

It's not just me who says squats are better than leg presses... it's anyone who actually squats and who can make that comparison. Since you haven't squatted for years, you should not have an opinion on the matter. Even Jones made sure Viator and Oliva did squats... there is something in the exercise (which I clearly explained) that cannot be achieved with a leg press.

And in regard to doing squats... there is a natural transition of tension among the muscles that is natural with fatigue, whereas with a biceps curl (what a moronic comparison, by the way) it is not the same thing or as much required (I can maintain the same form for nearly all the set, barring a bit of shoulder and low back involvement in the last 1-2 reps with biceps curls, whereas a lot earlier on there is a transition in squats). But again, you don't even squat, don't have your clients squat and know squat about the squat... so stay in your corner, expert.

As well, I don't recall me saying not to adjust form in a biceps curl or any other exercise, but that a set should terminate when any degree of adjustment or cheating places undue strain on any particular area (and if you understood Tri-Angular Training, which you do not, the method CALLS FOR adjustment from one angle or position to the next). What you are getting confused about (big friggin' surprise) is the degree of outside participation one applies, and particularly at the START of the set (e.g., tightening up all the muscles and trying to squeeze out more weight than what the intended muscle can handle properly and with greater isolation). THAT is what Andrew and I were discussing. But you can twist things around, misunderstand (as usual), and start up another argument claiming that we said something different.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Mr. Strong wrote:
Is it fair for you to criticise others squat form? Based on what you have posted in this thread, it isn't.



You criticized me first... and so when you show us a video of you doing those perfect squat reps, the same from first to last without any change in form, then I will post one. Deal, expert strength coach?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Mr. Strong wrote:
His form remained consistent. As he said it did. Might be partial squats, but then anything short of full squats are technically partial.

Lets say he can't squat deeper and maintain form would you suggest he break form to go deeper?

Why go close to failure?



The truth comes out... Ms. Strong does not train very hard, and likely with light weights. No wonder his form stays consistent. And going deeper and allowing a transition of tension to shift does not equate to breaking form. Do you even squat, because you sound as though you know nothing of squats, or squatting hard.

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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
His form remained consistent. As he said it did. Might be partial squats, but then anything short of full squats are technically partial.

Lets say he can't squat deeper and maintain form would you suggest he break form to go deeper?

Why go close to failure?



The truth comes out... Ms. Strong does not train very hard, and likely with light weights. No wonder his form stays consistent. And going deeper and allowing a transition of tension to shift does not equate to breaking form. Do you even squat, because you sound as though you know nothing of squats, or squatting hard.



Mr Strong continues to sound like an expert strength coach; we had a related conversation on the other thread where you talked about using the Zane leg blaster to help athletes squat deeper without breaking form - why the change in perspective for the athlete to stick their butt out and offload to other muscle groups as they fatigue?

Consider that some athletes like to round the back to DL a bit more weight, but it sure limits their lifting longevity.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Why? Geez, why don't you two experts tell us. I'll give you two geniuses a guess... it has to do with individualism and what a person is trying to achieve with any given exercise.

Tomislav wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Mr Strong continues to sound like an expert strength coach; we had a related conversation on the other thread where you talked about using the Zane leg blaster to help athletes squat deeper without breaking form - WHY the change in perspective for the athlete to stick their butt out and offload to other muscle groups as they fatigue?


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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Seriousstrength wrote:
Here's a question for you all to ponder over... if variation is the key to hypertrophy, then MAYBE the XForce machines and their greater negative had not a thing to do with the added hypertrophy that Bill, Ell and Roger experienced. Maybe it was simply the change - the variation - to a new stimulus that caused the gain.

Had they varied to do something else rather than XForce, perhaps their gains would have been the same - or even better.

AND if variation is key, then how many sessions on them will it take before the XForce machines no longer stimulate any muscle gains?

Or am I just being acutely obtuse?



Why do you think so linear and simplistic?

Variation isn't key it is part of the total demands...less variation less total demands.

When one of your clients first starts with you it is very unique thus variation is built in. The stimulus always needs to be appropriate that is not too heavy not too light, not too much vol/freq not too little etc. Variation only contributes properly if everything else is also in place. X Force clearly provides everything and a unique element thus adding the needed variation.
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