MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


ARCHIVES >>

"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

Mission Statement

H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy

Privacy Policy

Credits

LOG IN FORUM MAIN REGISTER SEARCH
X-Force and Muscle Gain
First | Prev | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | Next | Last
Author
Rating
Options

AShortt

Ontario, CAN

With variation the point isn't about breaking form. The point is that there is no way to avoid learning to get the job done better with bracing, coordinating etc...etc. HITters get the side effect the worst because we try so hard to keep going. We do the number one thing to build skill in moving very heavy loads...we keep going and forcing.

Much learning and skill acquisition is very tough to see because it is smooth bracing and handing work around and across the bone structure. Breaking form is just cheating and that is not what we're talking about. In fact what we are really on about tends to look just fine form wise.

Regards,
Andrew
Open User Options Menu

gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

farhad wrote:
gmlongo wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

You can't possibly believe that your form remains exactly consistent from rep 1 to the final rep. Brian is not talking about a complete breakdown of form, just that there will be small bodily adjustments due to the fatiguing of various muscle groups throughout the exercise.

Complete straw man argument on his part.


Seems like all his posts contain straw men...

Open User Options Menu

gmlongo

Connecticut, USA

Tomislav wrote:
gm,
you're seeing something Brian and I don't; this is interesting. Could you take a pic of the stills to illustrate side by side where the break in form occurs?


It's not as obvious with a ROM of about 5 inches, but you don't go quite as deep on a few reps and on others, your head is a couple inches forward relative to the majority of the reps. In any case, your execution of very small partials certainly makes it easier to maintain consistent throughout. But even then, there were subtle differences in some reps.
Open User Options Menu

cmg

Sorry but those are not what I would call squats. Can that develop anything? I have trained in gyms for many years - those are poorly done. I don't mean to be a jerk by any means but why not use less weight and do them to parallel? Is it just to use BIG weight? Do you believe just bending your knees is more effective than full squats? I used to squat and would go over 500lbs but would make sure I did parallel or would not consider it a squat....
I believe in this case, as with most, better to use a lighter weight and swallow your pride - you would get better results. You could do the same with any exercise - very small ROM and much bigger weights (bounce a bar off your chest in the bench..).

Regards,

Ron
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

cmg wrote:
Sorry but those are not what I would call squats. Can that develop anything? I have trained in gyms for many years - those are poorly done. I don't mean to be a jerk by any means but why not use less weight and do them to parallel? Is it just to use BIG weight? Do you believe just bending your knees is more effective than full squats? I used to squat and would go over 500lbs but would make sure I did parallel or would not consider it a squat....
I believe in this case, as with most, better to use a lighter weight and swallow your pride - you would get better results. You could do the same with any exercise - very small ROM and much bigger weights (bounce a bar off your chest in the bench..).

Regards,

Ron


Awesome bro post! Ever tire of armchair quarterbacking?
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

gmlongo wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
gm,
you're seeing something Brian and I don't; this is interesting. Could you take a pic of the stills to illustrate side by side where the break in form occurs?


It's not as obvious with a ROM of about 5 inches, but you don't go quite as deep on a few reps and on others, your head is a couple inches forward relative to the majority of the reps. In any case, your execution of very small partials certainly makes it easier to maintain consistent throughout. But even then, there were subtle differences in some reps.


Open User Options Menu

Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
His form remained consistent. As he said it did. Might be partial squats, but then anything short of full squats are technically partial.

Lets say he can't squat deeper and maintain form would you suggest he break form to go deeper?

Why go close to failure?



The truth comes out... Ms. Strong does not train very hard, and likely with light weights. No wonder his form stays consistent. And going deeper and allowing a transition of tension to shift does not equate to breaking form. Do you even squat, because you sound as though you know nothing of squats, or squatting hard.


Why go close to failure when squatting?

So you would advise him to go deeper even if it meant breaking form?
Open User Options Menu

Mr. Strong

cmg wrote:
Sorry but those are not what I would call squats. Can that develop anything? I have trained in gyms for many years - those are poorly done. I don't mean to be a jerk by any means but why not use less weight and do them to parallel? Is it just to use BIG weight? Do you believe just bending your knees is more effective than full squats? I used to squat and would go over 500lbs but would make sure I did parallel or would not consider it a squat....
I believe in this case, as with most, better to use a lighter weight and swallow your pride - you would get better results. You could do the same with any exercise - very small ROM and much bigger weights (bounce a bar off your chest in the bench..).

Regards,

Ron


You say "used" to squat, why do you not still squat?
Open User Options Menu

Mr. Strong

gmlongo wrote:
farhad wrote:
gmlongo wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Do you also suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

You can't possibly believe that your form remains exactly consistent from rep 1 to the final rep. Brian is not talking about a complete breakdown of form, just that there will be small bodily adjustments due to the fatiguing of various muscle groups throughout the exercise.

Complete straw man argument on his part.


Seems like all his posts contain straw men...


Do you suggest squatting beyond form breakdown?

Going to answer or keep dodging?
Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

British bodybuilder and Soul Music Authority Mark Houghton just visited Main Line Health & Fitness to train on X-Force. Hopefully Roger got some video and Mark will share his impressions.
Open User Options Menu

Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Dear Mr. Strong:

Why not squat close to fatigue (I'm not suggesting to failure, but it's called 'hard work,' and 'hard work' produces results... after all, this is a HIT forum...right?).

The ONLY way a person could maintain the same form from one rep to another is if that person stops at about a level 5-6 out of 10 in effort. Is that what YOU suggest?

I suggest going further in effort, and if the low back begins to feel excessive fatigue or strain, then the set stops. Simple enough?

However, I don't have clients do that, by the way, since I have many clients involved in rehab or are older than myself. That is why I have a Zane Leg Blaster and also jimmy-rigged a belt squat station to avoid low back issues associated with barbell back squats. I hope this answers your repetitive and na?ve questions.

Yours truly,

Mr. J.
Open User Options Menu

Mod Jump'n Jack

Once again...

This thread hijack, complete with childish behavior, tangents, and unrelated nonsense, has gone on long enough.

Return to discussing the original thread topic - X-Force training and Muscle Gains.

Further insults and off-topic discussions will not be posted.
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
British bodybuilder and Soul Music Authority Mark Houghton just visited Main Line Health & Fitness to train on X-Force. Hopefully Roger got some video and Mark will share his impressions.


Looking forward to seeing this Bill! Before the thread went off track, there was an interesting idea presented that X-Force will presently stop working for athletes despite the heavier load because variety is more important.

In CE and MAE you put the emphasis on the load; has your impression changed after working with X-Force?
Open User Options Menu

Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

X-Force equipment is a form of variation. How quickly a person would adapt to such training will vary (it's not 'immediate'), depending on how quickly that person can reach a peak in the loading (minus any micro-loading that can take place for months thereafter). I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?
Open User Options Menu

Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
X-Force equipment is a form of variation...

X-Force appears to be a new training modality.

I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?


I had the impression there was a CAM.
Open User Options Menu

AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Bill De Simone wrote:
British bodybuilder and Soul Music Authority Mark Houghton just visited Main Line Health & Fitness to train on X-Force. Hopefully Roger got some video and Mark will share his impressions.


Now that is interesting. Mark is one fellow I have seen go from really good to really great since I met him a few years back. His opinion would be worth its weight in gold records.

This is why I like any solid form of advancement in the field of HIT training. Whether it be X-Force or a new RenX design. Even Medi Fit who owns Nautilus Commercial has a forward thinking isometric/force gauge based system. It isn't about who is best it is about improvement. Fred always cut me down for not being as muscular as Brian so Brians's methods must be bunk. I always tried to explain that I thought any progress even just working for progress was enough to keep me happy. This "looking for the magic bullet" mentality is silly. Look for progress...how...by committing to creating to it.

Regards,
Andrew
Open User Options Menu

AShortt

Ontario, CAN

Tomislav wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
X-Force equipment is a form of variation...

X-Force appears to be a new training modality.

I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?

I had the impression there was a CAM.


No as in would the tilt mechanism allow for a redirect other than the top. I am curious about this as well.
Open User Options Menu

Seriousstrength

New York, USA

"Why do you think so linear and simplistic?"

****Why not think this way? What's wrong with thinking like this?

"Variation isn't key it is part of the total demands...less variation less total demands."

***Why would less variation = less damands? That makes absoultrly no sense. If the set is demanding, it's demanding! Since when is a set of squats taken to failure, using 80% of your true 1 RM NOT demanding? And who says making it even more demanding is better?

"When one of your clients first starts with you it is very unique thus variation is built in."

****What? When is variaiton ever built out?

"The stimulus always needs to be appropriate that is not too heavy not too light, not too much vol/freq not too little etc. Variation only contributes properly if everything else is also in place."

***In your opinion.

"X Force clearly provides everything and a unique element thus adding the needed variation."

***So what happens after 10 or so XForce sessions when the body decides "Uh Uh. We're used to this. Worthless now."

NONE of you proponants of variation heve YET to say what the mechanisms are that suddenly one day cause a certain stimulus that was working just fine to stop working. I'd like to hear what these are.

Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Mod Jump'n Jack wrote:
Once again...

This thread hijack, complete with childish behavior, tangents, and unrelated nonsense, has gone on long enough.

Return to discussing the original thread topic - X-Force training and Muscle Gains.

Further insults and off-topic discussions will not be posted.


Thank you.
Open User Options Menu

Seriousstrength

New York, USA

"Fred always cut me down for not being as muscular as Brian so Brians's methods must be bunk."

****Bullshit. We were discussing genetics. I pointed out that if jreps were so great and all the other stuff Brian goes on about, why aren't you as muscular as he is? Genetics.

And still, for all the talk of precision training, variation, etc., after all these years you're really no larger or more muscular than you were 5 years ago.

Somehow Brian managed to hit a lean 210 at 5'9" drug free which is friggin astounding.

If it ain't genetics or drugs, EVERYONE on this message board including Dr. Darden should be doing what Brian says since no one else here managed to do what Brian has done.
Open User Options Menu

Seriousstrength

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
X-Force equipment is a form of variation. How quickly a person would adapt to such training will vary (it's not 'immediate'), depending on how quickly that person can reach a peak in the loading (minus any micro-loading that can take place for months thereafter). I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?


****Why MINUS micro loading? Why is a slow and steady progression in load NOT valid for inducing hypertrophy? Please be specific.

And are you suggesting that only large increases in load cause hypertrophy? This is actually when learning/neuro adaptation are taking place the most. As I see it, it's the other way around or you'd be enormous in a very short time training in a gym with different equipment.

Still no pix Brian?
Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
X-Force equipment is a form of variation. How quickly a person would adapt to such training will vary (it's not 'immediate'), depending on how quickly that person can reach a peak in the loading (minus any micro-loading that can take place for months thereafter). I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?


Not speaking for Ell or Roger or X-Force, just from my observations, I don't think this weight stack technology would work well with these. The sensor reads your pause at the end of the positive as the signal to change the orientation of the stack, and as the stack approaches the bottom on the negative it tilts.

Partial reps would probably wreak havoc on the sensor. there's also a pause for the stack to realign, so a short rep misaligns the whole thing.

Should anyone want variety in an all X-Force environment, it would have to come from switching the order of exercises, pre-ex, 30 second sets to 90 second sets, split routines.
Of course, since I don't think there are any "all X" studios, this is kind of a moot point.
Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Tomislav wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
X-Force equipment is a form of variation...

X-Force appears to be a new training modality.

I would be curious to know if a person is able to perform stutter reps, 1 1/2 reps or other patterns on it... or is the person limited to full ROM reps?

I had the impression there was a CAM.


there is a cam effect, not necessarily a Nautilus type cam. I can tell you there are no sticking points or dead spots in any of the movements.
Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Tomislav wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
British bodybuilder and Soul Music Authority Mark Houghton just visited Main Line Health & Fitness to train on X-Force. Hopefully Roger got some video and Mark will share his impressions.

Looking forward to seeing this Bill! Before the thread went off track, there was an interesting idea presented that X-Force will presently stop working for athletes despite the heavier load because variety is more important.

In CE and MAE you put the emphasis on the load; has your impression changed after working with X-Force?


I know you're not bomb-throwing, but I disagree with "stop working...emphasis on load". So let me skip to my impressions after X-force.

A new appreciation for training to "failure", a terrible term. I'd call it "momentary maximum muscle effort" (ok, clunky). But stopping from joint ache, vs. stopping from muscle burn, vs. stopping from MMME became very distinct in using X-force.

Re-appreciation for Congruent ranges, which I was able to apply to equipment other than what I showed in videos/book, which I had hoped was the take away from the material.

Reminder of the usefulness of controlled speed of each rep, which I used deliberately to try to feel for sticking points and dead spots, but ended up making the set much harder than I intended.

In general, for my purposes in training, which are not for bodybuilding or sports competition per se, I'd say the most important points are, in order:
1. Form and technique, as in congruent ranges and controlled speed;
2. Progression, to get to the working weights, but with enough time to lock in 1.,
3. Effort and intensity, not necessarily "to failure and beyond", but enough to know you did something meaningful.
Open User Options Menu

Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
British bodybuilder and Soul Music Authority Mark Houghton just visited Main Line Health & Fitness to train on X-Force. Hopefully Roger got some video and Mark will share his impressions.


video of Mark on the MLHF Facebook page, everybody "like" it right now, (even if this link doesn't work)

https://www.facebook.com/...590427021001782
Open User Options Menu
First | Previous | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | Next | Last
Administrators Online: Mod Jump'n Jack
H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy