MB Madaera
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Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
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Keelan Parham
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Bob Marchesello
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Jeff Turner
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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Turpin wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Turpin wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
Turpin wrote:
cmg wrote:
Good luck gentlemen!!

Ron

X 2

Despite our previous jibes / disagreements I wish Andrew all the best with his endeavour & looking forward to seeing any changes.

Altho this kind of `walk` ( bodybuilding /exhibition thing ) is not for me I can / do appreciate the effort that goes into the prep for such.

T.




Gentlemen,

Good luck to both of you!

Mr.Turpin,

Are you only wishing Andrew the best?

Ed

Jittery Ed , Does Trentine need my blessing / best wishes ?
I have seen / read nothing from Trentine that would change my formed opinion of him.

T.



Mr.Turpin,

I don't believe he needs your blessings. Your comment was unclear, I thought that maybe you were finally burying the hatchet.

I guess you are not. It seems like you hate Mr.Trentine. How can you dislike someone because they exercise different than you? I am surprised that you are cordial with Mr.Shortt, why the difference he also disagrees with you?

Ed

I don't dislike Trentine because he exercises differently , I dislike him because he behaves a in a manner that I dislike.

T.



===Scott==
In my opinion Joshua and the REN-EX team have good machines and methods that can produce good results.Personally I like some of the methods they preach and I think their machines are tops. It wasn't that people on here were angry that he was doing something different, it was the attitude by those at REN-EX that their methods and machines were superior to all other methods and we were fools for doing standard HIT practices. There was alot of bragging of superiority with nothing to substantiate their hype that their way was the best way.

I think it's a shame that REN-EX has now gone to a pay per channel type forum which to most of us means they are gone. They had alot of good stuff to say on there but I think they got tired of the people who got on there and gave them crap. Like I've said before, they earned alot of the disrespect they got by being so egotistical.Either way Joshua knows alot of muscle building stuff and has a fine physique. I wish him well in his up coming contest.
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Mr. Strong

Turpin wrote:
I believe there is indeed correlation between resistance used and muscle size , BUT upon reaching ones limitations in strength ( which doesn't take long ) there are far more variables that are necessary to realise ongoing hypertrophy and not necessarily involving adding pounds on the bar.

T.



Increasing load is not the only way to build muscle, I don't think anyone has suggested such.

What has been suggested is that increasing load, without altering the exercise to allow for more weight/reps, will build muscle.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.
Open User Options Menu

Turpin

Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
I believe there is indeed correlation between resistance used and muscle size , BUT upon reaching ones limitations in strength ( which doesn't take long ) there are far more variables that are necessary to realise ongoing hypertrophy and not necessarily involving adding pounds on the bar.

T.


Increasing load is not the only way to build muscle, I don't think anyone has suggested such.

What has been suggested is that increasing load, without altering the exercise to allow for more weight/reps, will build muscle.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.


On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Turpin wrote:
On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.


T,
surprised to hear you say this; I'm not arguing periodisation doesn't work but one does not need to cycle intensity; I've realised linear progress using only simple resistance increases across exercises.

But I have noticed resistance increases can vary in terms of intensity; when you're fat, climbing a thick rope that is already at the limits of grippability quickly turns into forced intensity training and there's something different about adding bodyweight resistance to difficult bodyweight exercises than adding weight to a barbell.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Mr. Strong wrote:
I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.


Who have you actually seen in training... whose weights are you aware of. And a long time?... I've been training for 33 years... how much longer do I need, expert? When I say it doesn't take long, I'm referring to within 5 years. The only lifts a person can increase beyond that point will be multi-joint like the squat, and there's always alteration in outside musculature contraction, adaptive coordination, etc., all of which continues to be ignored. You take something like a barbell curl or even smaller (wrist curl) and a person will peak out on those in less than 5 years (presuming the person did not start training at age 12 or something exaggerated).

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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.

Who have you actually seen in training... whose weights are you aware of. And a long time?... I've been training for 33 years... how much longer do I need, expert? When I say it doesn't take long, I'm referring to within 5 years. The only lifts a person can increase beyond that point will be multi-joint like the squat, and there's always alteration in outside musculature contraction, adaptive coordination, etc., all of which continues to be ignored. You take something like a barbell curl or even smaller (wrist curl) and a person will peak out on those in less than 5 years (presuming the person did not start training at age 12 or something exaggerated).





If you have reached your limitation in strength, that would mean it is literally impossible for you to get any stronger, is this the case?
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Mr. Strong

Turpin wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
I believe there is indeed correlation between resistance used and muscle size , BUT upon reaching ones limitations in strength ( which doesn't take long ) there are far more variables that are necessary to realise ongoing hypertrophy and not necessarily involving adding pounds on the bar.

T.


Increasing load is not the only way to build muscle, I don't think anyone has suggested such.

What has been suggested is that increasing load, without altering the exercise to allow for more weight/reps, will build muscle.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.

On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.




Would that not be considered your limit in the Deadlift within the context of that sports requirements, and not necessarily the limit of your strength?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Any stronger or any more proficient at lifting weights? Two different things. If you actually mean 'stronger,' then yes, that comes to a limit much sooner than optimizing lifting proficiency.

By the way, who are the people you know on this board, and what are their lifts... how do you know they haven't reached a limit? Why avoid that question, since it was your claim? Don't run and hide!

I've reached limits in what I can lift nearly a decade ago, which is why I choose to challenge my body through other means of variation, so that I can use the same loads (or even lesser loads) in more challenging ways. But a person can be a Neanderthal and choose to grunt, groan and risk injury by pushing the limits through weight hoisting.
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Turpin

Tomislav wrote:
Turpin wrote:
On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.


T,
surprised to hear you say this; I'm not arguing periodisation doesn't work but one does not need to cycle intensity; I've realised linear progress using only simple resistance increases across exercises.

But I have noticed resistance increases can vary in terms of intensity; when you're fat, climbing a thick rope that is already at the limits of grippability quickly turns into forced intensity training and there's something different about adding bodyweight resistance to difficult bodyweight exercises than adding weight to a barbell.


In my experience Tomi , increases in resistance are/can be only maintained short term after a period of relatively less intensity ( de-load ) , AND such short term increases do not manifest as discernible muscular gain.
IF one cycles their intensity ( periodisation ) to realise ongoing strength increase over the long term then I believe there can be a correlation of size/strength increase.
In brief : Once past intermediate level short term strength increase is usually neurological in nature and strength increase over the long term necessitates careful planning ( periodization )

T.

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Turpin

Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
I believe there is indeed correlation between resistance used and muscle size , BUT upon reaching ones limitations in strength ( which doesn't take long ) there are far more variables that are necessary to realise ongoing hypertrophy and not necessarily involving adding pounds on the bar.

T.


Increasing load is not the only way to build muscle, I don't think anyone has suggested such.

What has been suggested is that increasing load, without altering the exercise to allow for more weight/reps, will build muscle.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.

On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.




Would that not be considered your limit in the Deadlift within the context of that sports requirements, and not necessarily the limit of your strength?


I think ( in all honesty ) it was the limit of my strength Mr S.
I tried increasing bodyweight for a prolonged period in order to eek out any more in the lift but ( as I reported in another thread ) we each have our optimal bodyweight that realises our `best` , mine was just over the 75kg limit and pound for pound in competition ( using the shwartz fornula ) was around 72kg.

T.
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Turpin

indexit wrote:
Hi,

I have on occasion made fun of Joshua on Facebook for not showing pictures of his legs. Recently all he has shown is his biceps and upper body. I am kind of a legs guy, and most of the shots of people are always about the upper body. I also send Joshua a few kind of mean emails about him and doing intense training and how he must have a bad case of chicken leg disease.


jeff


Hmmm , Not looking like much change here Jeff !

T.

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HeavyHitter32

No doubt and he has a ways to go yet as far as getting cut.
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indexit

Turpin wrote:
indexit wrote:
Hi,

I have on occasion made fun of Joshua on Facebook for not showing pictures of his legs. Recently all he has shown is his biceps and upper body. I am kind of a legs guy, and most of the shots of people are always about the upper body. I also send Joshua a few kind of mean emails about him and doing intense training and how he must have a bad case of chicken leg disease.


jeff

Hmmm , Not looking like much change here Jeff !

T.



Can't tell that much with the T-shirt on. Maybe I can get Joshua to send me a picture without his shirt on for you Turpin.

I think he looks decent for his genetics for a guy in his 40s?

jeff
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Turpin

indexit wrote:
Turpin wrote:
indexit wrote:
Hi,

I have on occasion made fun of Joshua on Facebook for not showing pictures of his legs. Recently all he has shown is his biceps and upper body. I am kind of a legs guy, and most of the shots of people are always about the upper body. I also send Joshua a few kind of mean emails about him and doing intense training and how he must have a bad case of chicken leg disease.


jeff

Hmmm , Not looking like much change here Jeff !

T.



Can't tell that much with the T-shirt on. Maybe I can get Joshua to send me a picture without his shirt on for you Turpin.

I think he looks decent for his genetics for a guy in his 40s?

jeff


You think ? ... Look at those legs !

For his genetics ? ... he boasts / brags about being a pro & uses it to advance Renex !

T.

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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

The issue is not whether he looks good for his age... for his genetics, etc... but how much better he looks now after doing RenEx than before RenEx. How much did he improve based on the cost and time investment of the new machines. I don't know the answer... I'm merely stating.
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indexit

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
No doubt and he has a ways to go yet as far as getting cut.


yea he is definitely chubby for 11 weeks out. It will be interesting to see if he can take the fat off in time. I don't think he will want to show up at the completion being that fat.

jeff
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
dipsrule wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
Pulling over 500 is pretty impressive if you mean the standard freeweight version; perhaps it built more muscle than you thought.


Tomi, I sure he would have known given it's his own body.

I too have made very large strength increases over full range and partial range movements (Power Factor Training) and gained zero muscle and actually got flatter and less vascular looking more untrained.

Instead of focusing on strength gains, focus on the *muscle* itself while training to achieve the desired effect - of course, assuming your goal is more hypertrophy.

I had basically the same results as yours.

I followed Mentzers advice to the letter. I talked to him several times over a 4 month period.

While I did gain some muscle I gained alot of body weight.

I did better on the ideal routine. But for 4 months I did the consolidation routine.

When I told him enough is enough already. Eating more adding rest days.

His exact words to me were "would you cry in your milk if some of that weight turned out to be muscle."

That was the last time I talked to him and pissed away my money.

I took some time off and then did Dr.Dardens Upsidedown bodybuilding routine.

I lost 25 pounds. I looked better. People ask me are you training with weights? I was stronger than I was on the consolidation routine.

I called Mentzer to tell him what I did. It was like me saying screw you.

He was not there. He was having health problems.

The funny thing is Ray answered the phone.

I told him what happened. He agreed with my problem with the consolidation routine. He told me I would be better off using the ideal routine with more rest days added. He told my to read HD II. LOL I did read it.

He was really nice and talked to me for a while. We even talked about things not involved with training.

We agreed there is more in life than things more important weight training.

Before I became disabled I got better results with compound moves twice a week using 4-5 exercises.

I had a very demanding job mentally and physically. Often working 12 hours a day. Sometimes more. So the compound movements fit it well.Not always optimal buts thats what I did.

In the past ive had good results training 3 x a week. Some time 2x a week,and once a week. Any more the 7-10 days I would start loosing strength.



Dipsrule,

Very interesting to hear of your experience.

I too was a Mentzer client for quite some time during the 90s.

I basically quit talking to him in the late 90s as he kept having me reduce my training to such minimal levels which I knew wouldn't/didn't give me the result I was looking for. The initial consolidation routine he gave me in 1993 had a little more volume and was done twice per week - I found that more effective than the every 7-14 day approach with even fewer exercises.

I also never did well on the HDII Ideal Routine as it was just too infrequent for some muscles (directly hitting the chest only every 16-20 days was a disaster). I did much better on the HDI routine by comparison.



I think if Mike was training more people in person he would have had to know the pitfalls of adding extra rest days and lowering volume on the consolidation routine.Maybe he did.

When it cames down to it abbreviated routines have been being used for decades. Just not with so many rest days between workouts.

Anyway Mikes dead and and maybe some made long term progress. I dont know. But he got are money I know that.
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jitterbug

Brian Johnston wrote:
No idea what you're talking about Ed, but then again... I likely don't care.



Mr.Johnson,

You claim to be an expert but you don't know muscles produce force and a bigger muscle compared to it previous self can always produce more force?

Since this is the case the fact of the matter is that it takes a bigger muscle to move a massive weight assuming standardization of course. It is not the heavy weight that keeps your muscles from adapting it's your change in behavior as you learn to hoist more reps.

If you standardize reps like RenEx do they won't lie to you. The only reason you have failed with using heavier weights is because you change your form, lose range of motion, or speed up. An expert should know this.

And the bit about neuromuscular coordination and skill, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH is not a concern for the advanced athlete that coordination bit happens primarily to a newbie. A person like yourself who has trained 30 years can't blame their failure to gain from training hard and using heavy weights on skill. You are way beyond that point sir.

I think you avoid heavy weights because it is hard work.

Ed
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jitterbug

DukeMatisse wrote:
Josh's coversations on this site were extremely canned and a horrible turn off to most people.

Believing in a training method is one thing, but turning every possible subject into an infomercial is as tolerable as most late night informercials.



Mr.Matisse,

How is this different from Mr.Johnson promoting J-Peps or Dr.Darden promoting X-Force?

Ed
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jitterbug

Turpin wrote:
Genetically Trentine will never have impressive legs ( especially calves & soleus ) , similarly he does not have the pelvic/hip structure to impress even if he improved his upper body width.

Great tattoo`s though , those ARE impressive & detract from his shortcomings.

T.


Mr.Turpin,

You continue to be critical of Mr.Trentine but not of Mr.Shortt why is that? Is Mr.Shortt the better bodybuilder of the two? Is J-Reps and muscle confusion better than RenEx to you? Why not fair treatment of both. I think this runs much deeper than any objective criticism. I believe you have an ax to grind.

Ed
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HeavyHitter32

dipsrule wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
dipsrule wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
Pulling over 500 is pretty impressive if you mean the standard freeweight version; perhaps it built more muscle than you thought.


Tomi, I sure he would have known given it's his own body.

I too have made very large strength increases over full range and partial range movements (Power Factor Training) and gained zero muscle and actually got flatter and less vascular looking more untrained.

Instead of focusing on strength gains, focus on the *muscle* itself while training to achieve the desired effect - of course, assuming your goal is more hypertrophy.

I had basically the same results as yours.

I followed Mentzers advice to the letter. I talked to him several times over a 4 month period.

While I did gain some muscle I gained alot of body weight.

I did better on the ideal routine. But for 4 months I did the consolidation routine.

When I told him enough is enough already. Eating more adding rest days.

His exact words to me were "would you cry in your milk if some of that weight turned out to be muscle."

That was the last time I talked to him and pissed away my money.

I took some time off and then did Dr.Dardens Upsidedown bodybuilding routine.

I lost 25 pounds. I looked better. People ask me are you training with weights? I was stronger than I was on the consolidation routine.

I called Mentzer to tell him what I did. It was like me saying screw you.

He was not there. He was having health problems.

The funny thing is Ray answered the phone.

I told him what happened. He agreed with my problem with the consolidation routine. He told me I would be better off using the ideal routine with more rest days added. He told my to read HD II. LOL I did read it.

He was really nice and talked to me for a while. We even talked about things not involved with training.

We agreed there is more in life than things more important weight training.

Before I became disabled I got better results with compound moves twice a week using 4-5 exercises.

I had a very demanding job mentally and physically. Often working 12 hours a day. Sometimes more. So the compound movements fit it well.Not always optimal buts thats what I did.

In the past ive had good results training 3 x a week. Some time 2x a week,and once a week. Any more the 7-10 days I would start loosing strength.



Dipsrule,

Very interesting to hear of your experience.

I too was a Mentzer client for quite some time during the 90s.

I basically quit talking to him in the late 90s as he kept having me reduce my training to such minimal levels which I knew wouldn't/didn't give me the result I was looking for. The initial consolidation routine he gave me in 1993 had a little more volume and was done twice per week - I found that more effective than the every 7-14 day approach with even fewer exercises.

I also never did well on the HDII Ideal Routine as it was just too infrequent for some muscles (directly hitting the chest only every 16-20 days was a disaster). I did much better on the HDI routine by comparison.


I think if Mike was training more people in person he would have had to know the pitfalls of adding extra rest days and lowering volume on the consolidation routine.Maybe he did.

When it cames down to it abbreviated routines have been being used for decades. Just not with so many rest days between workouts.

Anyway Mikes dead and and maybe some made long term progress. I dont know. But he got are money I know that.


Take this for what it's worth, but according to someone who knew Mike at the very end said that Mike was changing his view of the ultra consolidated stuff and was even re-considering going to absolute positive failure and considered to go back to using routines similar to HDI. However, he felt he had painted himself in a corner with what he had been preaching. I think we all found that out for ourselves.
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HeavyHitter32

indexit wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
No doubt and he has a ways to go yet as far as getting cut.

yea he is definitely chubby for 11 weeks out. It will be interesting to see if he can take the fat off in time. I don't think he will want to show up at the completion being that fat.

jeff


I remember when he posted on this forum he was gorging on huge quantities of raw food (eggs, milk, beef, etc.). I imagine he ended up with a lot of fat to lose based on what he stated he was easting.
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indexit

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
indexit wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
No doubt and he has a ways to go yet as far as getting cut.

yea he is definitely chubby for 11 weeks out. It will be interesting to see if he can take the fat off in time. I don't think he will want to show up at the completion being that fat.

jeff

I remember when he posted on this forum he was gorging on huge quantities of raw food (eggs, milk, beef, etc.). I imagine he ended up with a lot of fat to lose based on what he stated he was easting.


Earlier this year when I was speaking to Joshua on the phone he was telling me all about his addiction to hagen dos ice cream and pizza.

In one conversation I had with him, he was on a hagen dos run and had to get off the phone to pay for the stuff. I remember telling him that I like Ben and Jerry's ice cream. He said that stuff was shit, because it is the like eating a candy bar and I should eat the hagen dos....

I wonder if he gave up the ice cream and pizza?

jeff
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
dipsrule wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
dipsrule wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
Pulling over 500 is pretty impressive if you mean the standard freeweight version; perhaps it built more muscle than you thought.


Tomi, I sure he would have known given it's his own body.

I too have made very large strength increases over full range and partial range movements (Power Factor Training) and gained zero muscle and actually got flatter and less vascular looking more untrained.

Instead of focusing on strength gains, focus on the *muscle* itself while training to achieve the desired effect - of course, assuming your goal is more hypertrophy.

I had basically the same results as yours.

I followed Mentzers advice to the letter. I talked to him several times over a 4 month period.

While I did gain some muscle I gained alot of body weight.

I did better on the ideal routine. But for 4 months I did the consolidation routine.

When I told him enough is enough already. Eating more adding rest days.

His exact words to me were "would you cry in your milk if some of that weight turned out to be muscle."

That was the last time I talked to him and pissed away my money.

I took some time off and then did Dr.Dardens Upsidedown bodybuilding routine.

I lost 25 pounds. I looked better. People ask me are you training with weights? I was stronger than I was on the consolidation routine.

I called Mentzer to tell him what I did. It was like me saying screw you.

He was not there. He was having health problems.

The funny thing is Ray answered the phone.

I told him what happened. He agreed with my problem with the consolidation routine. He told me I would be better off using the ideal routine with more rest days added. He told my to read HD II. LOL I did read it.

He was really nice and talked to me for a while. We even talked about things not involved with training.

We agreed there is more in life than things more important weight training.

Before I became disabled I got better results with compound moves twice a week using 4-5 exercises.

I had a very demanding job mentally and physically. Often working 12 hours a day. Sometimes more. So the compound movements fit it well.Not always optimal buts thats what I did.

In the past ive had good results training 3 x a week. Some time 2x a week,and once a week. Any more the 7-10 days I would start loosing strength.



Dipsrule,

Very interesting to hear of your experience.

I too was a Mentzer client for quite some time during the 90s.

I basically quit talking to him in the late 90s as he kept having me reduce my training to such minimal levels which I knew wouldn't/didn't give me the result I was looking for. The initial consolidation routine he gave me in 1993 had a little more volume and was done twice per week - I found that more effective than the every 7-14 day approach with even fewer exercises.

I also never did well on the HDII Ideal Routine as it was just too infrequent for some muscles (directly hitting the chest only every 16-20 days was a disaster). I did much better on the HDI routine by comparison.


I think if Mike was training more people in person he would have had to know the pitfalls of adding extra rest days and lowering volume on the consolidation routine.Maybe he did.

When it cames down to it abbreviated routines have been being used for decades. Just not with so many rest days between workouts.

Anyway Mikes dead and and maybe some made long term progress. I dont know. But he got are money I know that.


Take this for what it's worth, but according to someone who knew Mike at the very end said that Mike was changing his view of the ultra consolidated stuff and was even re-considering going to absolute positive failure and considered to go back to using routines similar to HDI. However, he felt he had painted himself in a corner with what he had been preaching. I think we all found that out for ourselves.



Yes ive heard that also.

After talking with Ray about what my results were with the consolidation he thought it would a good idea to go the the ideal routine.

From what ive read ( Mike was said to train Markus Reinhardt) that Markus trains his clients with a split routine. Depending on his clients sometimes use a three way split in a week.

I cant speak for Markus. But from looking at his website and seeing some posts on facebook I think this is what he may be doing.

Maybe if Markus reads this post(I know he is a member)he could chime in and and comment,and let me know if im wrong.
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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
Any stronger or any more proficient at lifting weights? Two different things. If you actually mean 'stronger,' then yes, that comes to a limit much sooner than optimizing lifting proficiency.

By the way, who are the people you know on this board, and what are their lifts... how do you know they haven't reached a limit? Why avoid that question, since it was your claim? Don't run and hide!

I've reached limits in what I can lift nearly a decade ago, which is why I choose to challenge my body through other means of variation, so that I can use the same loads (or even lesser loads) in more challenging ways. But a person can be a Neanderthal and choose to grunt, groan and risk injury by pushing the limits through weight hoisting.


Could you give examples of your weights/reps? You have reached your limitation in strength so these must be very impressive.
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