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Mr. Strong

Turpin wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Mr. Strong wrote:
Turpin wrote:
I believe there is indeed correlation between resistance used and muscle size , BUT upon reaching ones limitations in strength ( which doesn't take long ) there are far more variables that are necessary to realise ongoing hypertrophy and not necessarily involving adding pounds on the bar.

T.


Increasing load is not the only way to build muscle, I don't think anyone has suggested such.

What has been suggested is that increasing load, without altering the exercise to allow for more weight/reps, will build muscle.

I haven't seen anyone on this board who has reached their limitation in strength. It takes a long time to reach ones limitation in strength. Saying it doesn't take long is untrue.

On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.




Would that not be considered your limit in the Deadlift within the context of that sports requirements, and not necessarily the limit of your strength?

I think ( in all honesty ) it was the limit of my strength Mr S.
I tried increasing bodyweight for a prolonged period in order to eek out any more in the lift but ( as I reported in another thread ) we each have our optimal bodyweight that realises our `best` , mine was just over the 75kg limit and pound for pound in competition ( using the shwartz fornula ) was around 72kg.

T.



To reach your limit in strength would mean that every muscle in your body was as strong as it could possibly be, literally no room for any improvement.

Not been able to add weight to your 1RM in the Deadlift does not mean that your muscles were as strong as they could be.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

jitterbug wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
No idea what you're talking about Ed, but then again... I likely don't care.


Mr.Johnson,

You claim to be an expert but you don't know muscles produce force and a bigger muscle compared to it previous self can always produce more force?

Since this is the case the fact of the matter is that it takes a bigger muscle to move a massive weight assuming standardization of course. It is not the heavy weight that keeps your muscles from adapting it's your change in behavior as you learn to hoist more reps.

If you standardize reps like RenEx do they won't lie to you. The only reason you have failed with using heavier weights is because you change your form, lose range of motion, or speed up. An expert should know this.

And the bit about neuromuscular coordination and skill, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH is not a concern for the advanced athlete that coordination bit happens primarily to a newbie. A person like yourself who has trained 30 years can't blame their failure to gain from training hard and using heavy weights on skill. You are way beyond that point sir.

I think you avoid heavy weights because it is hard work.

Ed


You must be upset, Ed... you spelled my name wrong again. Yes, a larger muscle will produce more force, but the same sized muscles can lift more weights due to lifting proficiency. As a person becomes experienced the intra- and extra-muscular effects to perfect weight training (and more so the nervous system as it remaps itself, which it does) is relied up even more since it becomes more difficult to develop muscle in later stages and the body will strive to use other means to adapt and to lift more weight.

If you understood the dynamics of how the body works, you would know all this and be an expert like myself. You have been a weight training 'enthusiast' for a few months or years, and please don't try to challenge me on things I've been studying for decades. Actually investigate these concepts and read and experience what I have. Best wishes.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

jitterbug wrote:
DukeMatisse wrote:
Josh's coversations on this site were extremely canned and a horrible turn off to most people.

Believing in a training method is one thing, but turning every possible subject into an infomercial is as tolerable as most late night informercials.



Mr.Matisse,

How is this different from Mr.Johnson promoting J-Peps or Dr.Darden promoting X-Force?

Ed


My the way, Ed... I don't avoid heavy loads... I use the heaviest load possible RELATIVE TO the method that I incorporate. I use in excess of 300 pounds on the Zane Leg Blaster... deep, deep squats. I use 300 pounds on the MedX lumbar extension. I also use the entire stack on the MedX leg ext (depending on my application).

I need to use both stacks on my pulley machine for rows because one stack is not heavy enough. And if you have read my posts in the past, it is another person who brings up Zone Training initially. I have NEVER started a thread on Zone Training, or even on the latest book/DVD I'm developing. I offered up a sample chapter on the book because it offered actual, usable advice and information that a person can apply regardless of equipment being used.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Turpin wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
Turpin wrote:
On a personal level Mr S. in my first year or so powerlifting I was close to the poundage's that I finished with , adding only relatively small increments each year ( it didn't take long to reach this level ) ... and thereafter it was only meticulous preparation ( mentally / physically ) that kept me there for competition. That WAS the upper limits of my strength.

To-date I use much less resistance but in a manner that realises as near optimal ( as I believe it ) MU activation and subsequent fatigue. YES , I still try to realise ongoing progress by increments in resistance when I feel I have `adapted` , BUT only when I feel the volume ( sets ) has become excessive.

ie; if I previously performed 5 x8 reps on an exercise with a certain resistance then I would prefer to add a 6th set ( perhaps 6 x7 reps = 42 reps x 2 more than my previous 40 overall reps until I eventually adapted to 6 x8 ) than add further resistance.

I agree with your analogy in respect of chins , BUT I have yet to see anyone realise linear progress using simple resistance increase without cycling the intensity ( effort ) and even when linear progress was achievable ( short term ) that progress is seldom matched with discernible muscular increase ( short term ).

T.


T,
surprised to hear you say this; I'm not arguing periodisation doesn't work but one does not need to cycle intensity; I've realised linear progress using only simple resistance increases across exercises.

But I have noticed resistance increases can vary in terms of intensity; when you're fat, climbing a thick rope that is already at the limits of grippability quickly turns into forced intensity training and there's something different about adding bodyweight resistance to difficult bodyweight exercises than adding weight to a barbell.


In my experience Tomi , increases in resistance are/can be only maintained short term after a period of relatively less intensity ( de-load ) , AND such short term increases do not manifest as discernible muscular gain.
IF one cycles their intensity ( periodisation ) to realise ongoing strength increase over the long term then I believe there can be a correlation of size/strength increase.
In brief : Once past intermediate level short term strength increase is usually neurological in nature and strength increase over the long term necessitates careful planning ( periodization )

T.



That is too complicated for my taste T; lift heavy, take a week off, lift heavy again :)

I train for power sport where the performance needs to be repeatable the next game, not powerlifting where you are peaking with a max performance for a meet.

My training doesn't include doubles or tripples; I think the low rep area may precipitate the need for periodisation.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Mr. Strong wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
I've reached limits in what I can lift nearly a decade ago, which is why I choose to challenge my body through other means of variation, so that I can use the same loads (or even lesser loads) in more challenging ways. But a person can be a Neanderthal and choose to grunt, groan and risk injury by pushing the limits through weight hoisting.

Could you give examples of your weights/reps? You have reached your limitation in strength so these must be very impressive.


Excellent point Mr Strong!

Brian,
you brought up the example of athletes who can chin with a 100 lb plate earlier:

We can see just from the athletes on this thread that this is something within reach - Turpin, Josh and I can all easily chin with a 100 lb plate.

Are you really at the limits of this lift? I used to think I was until I changed to a parallel grip; in my case it was really a joint issue that was preventing me from going further, perhaps something else with you but I doubt that you are at your limit.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

No need to doubt me... I'm at my limit. I know my body... likely a bit better than you. I have worked in rehab for 15 years and have done every variation of every lift imaginable. I think I have it all dialed in.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

On a somewhat related to the original thread topic, is it just me or do others also feel that tattoos diminish the aesthetic value(appearance) of muscles, especially for a professional bodybuilder in a contest?

Do they take attention away from the muscle groups being judged? Do they cover too much of the striations? Do they have any effect on judges?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

It's more difficult to see the shape and definition. Half of Trentine's body is covered (there's tattoo covering make-up, but it has an effect on the way the muscle looks and gives you a green hue). When I judged years back marks were taken off for tattoos. The person had to be a good 20% better than the others in order to win or place well. Things may have changed.
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jitterbug

Brian Johnston wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
DukeMatisse wrote:
Josh's coversations on this site were extremely canned and a horrible turn off to most people.

Believing in a training method is one thing, but turning every possible subject into an infomercial is as tolerable as most late night informercials.



Mr.Matisse,

How is this different from Mr.Johnson promoting J-Peps or Dr.Darden promoting X-Force?

Ed

My the way, Ed... I don't avoid heavy loads... I use the heaviest load possible RELATIVE TO the method that I incorporate. I use in excess of 300 pounds on the Zane Leg Blaster... deep, deep squats. I use 300 pounds on the MedX lumbar extension. I also use the entire stack on the MedX leg ext (depending on my application).

I need to use both stacks on my pulley machine for rows because one stack is not heavy enough. And if you have read my posts in the past, it is another person who brings up Zone Training initially. I have NEVER started a thread on Zone Training, or even on the latest book/DVD I'm developing. I offered up a sample chapter on the book because it offered actual, usable advice and information that a person can apply regardless of equipment being used.



Mr.Johnston,

When you use the heavier weights you are changing your form, that is the skill part. If you standardize rep performance and go from 300 to 500 on your squats your Legs will be bigger. I'm sure that when you use the whole stack on a leg extension machine your form has deteriorated that's why you go back to light weights and J-Reps.

The neuromuscular coordination that you blame for getting smaller by using big weights happens only to newbies in their first 6 weeks of training. You are simply behaving different when you use the heavy weights. Bigger muscles produce more force this is bodybuilding 101.

Ed
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

It is going to be fun and interesting so lets try to keep it that way.

I subscribe wholeheartedly to variation and avoiding just getting better at lifts. Josh as settled well into RenX and serious standardization.

Now I'm a lightweight and he is a heavy but I always thought he was a great power of example because he wasn't short or particularly heavily muscled. Josh is natural and the real deal so regardless of personalities his opinion on muscle building is very important.

The fun will be to see if either of us with our less than spectacular physiques have made improvement. Not huge changes because we aren't novice or drugged. But have our diametrically opposed training styles (but both abbreviated High Intensity)lead in the same direction...and if so what element do they both share which could stand out as very important to muscle building? The implications for the natural, the normal and the aging could be significant.

Regards,
Andrew
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

jitterbug wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
jitterbug wrote:
DukeMatisse wrote:
Josh's coversations on this site were extremely canned and a horrible turn off to most people.

Believing in a training method is one thing, but turning every possible subject into an infomercial is as tolerable as most late night informercials.



Mr.Matisse,

How is this different from Mr.Johnson promoting J-Peps or Dr.Darden promoting X-Force?

Ed

My the way, Ed... I don't avoid heavy loads... I use the heaviest load possible RELATIVE TO the method that I incorporate. I use in excess of 300 pounds on the Zane Leg Blaster... deep, deep squats. I use 300 pounds on the MedX lumbar extension. I also use the entire stack on the MedX leg ext (depending on my application).

I need to use both stacks on my pulley machine for rows because one stack is not heavy enough. And if you have read my posts in the past, it is another person who brings up Zone Training initially. I have NEVER started a thread on Zone Training, or even on the latest book/DVD I'm developing. I offered up a sample chapter on the book because it offered actual, usable advice and information that a person can apply regardless of equipment being used.


Mr.Johnston,

When you use the heavier weights you are changing your form, that is the skill part. If you standardize rep performance and go from 300 to 500 on your squats your Legs will be bigger. I'm sure that when you use the whole stack on a leg extension machine your form has deteriorated that's why you go back to light weights and J-Reps.

The neuromuscular coordination that you blame for getting smaller by using big weights happens only to newbies in their first 6 weeks of training. You are simply behaving different when you use the heavy weights. Bigger muscles produce more force this is bodybuilding 101.

Ed


Ed, I even used a metronome in the past and tried to perfect every rep of every set. You are completely IGNORANT as to what I've done in the past and the extent to which I've done it. Leave me alone.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Ed, I also made it very clear that I don't use light weights... I use the heaviest weights possible relative to the method. And the heavy loads I used with the Zane leg blaster, dual cable machine rows, etc. ARE with Zone Training. You only wished you trained so light, lol.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

AShortt wrote:
It is going to be fun and interesting so lets try to keep it that way.

I subscribe wholeheartedly to variation and avoiding just getting better at lifts. Josh as settled well into RenX and serious standardization.

Now I'm a lightweight and he is a heavy but I always thought he was a great power of example because he wasn't short or particularly heavily muscled. Josh is natural and the real deal so regardless of personalities his opinion on muscle building is very important.

The fun will be to see if either of us with our less than spectacular physiques have made improvement. Not huge changes because we aren't novice or drugged. But have our diametrically opposed training styles (but both abbreviated High Intensity)lead in the same direction...and if so what element do they both share which could stand out as very important to muscle building? The implications for the natural, the normal and the aging could be significant.

Regards,
Andrew


Great post Andrew!

Regardless of differences in training you both took a markedly different diet approach where you stayed fairly lean while Josh stayed fat for a couple of years; this is a good opportunity to illustrate which approach can yield bigger improvements for advanced athletes.

If Josh is able to demonstrate the latter approach is superior will you give it a try; take two years off to stay bulked with raw food and then come in as a middle weight?
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jitterbug

AShortt wrote:
It is going to be fun and interesting so lets try to keep it that way.

I subscribe wholeheartedly to variation and avoiding just getting better at lifts. Josh as settled well into RenX and serious standardization.

Now I'm a lightweight and he is a heavy but I always thought he was a great power of example because he wasn't short or particularly heavily muscled. Josh is natural and the real deal so regardless of personalities his opinion on muscle building is very important.

The fun will be to see if either of us with our less than spectacular physiques have made improvement. Not huge changes because we aren't novice or drugged. But have our diametrically opposed training styles (but both abbreviated High Intensity)lead in the same direction...and if so what element do they both share which could stand out as very important to muscle building? The implications for the natural, the normal and the aging could be significant.

Regards,
Andrew



Mr.Shortt,

What you say here is very exciting, I think this contest is very important and has profound implications. This is a fun subject for such this forum. I apologize if I have turned the discussion away from the event.

Ed
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
No need to doubt me... I'm at my limit. I know my body... likely a bit better than you. I have worked in rehab for 15 years and have done every variation of every lift imaginable. I think I have it all dialed in.


Well it's unlikely you've reached your limit chinning; your back is certainly large enough for a 100 lb plate.

Try using a close parallel grip and leaning back slightly as you pull up to make it feel more like a row, you've pointed out you're plenty strong in those.

Mr Strong posed an excellent question; what limits have you reached in the standard press (barbell or dumbbell), flye, squat and other free weight exercises?

Let me know and I'll tell you if I think you're at your limits via comparison to the athletes on this thread again; IMO it should be motivational if other advanced natural athletes exceed you in a particular lift because it illustrates more progress is possible.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Ed,

What do you mean by "profound implications"? What would they be? and why?


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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

I know how to chin... but thanks for the advice.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
I know how to chin... but thanks for the advice.


And if you do not know how to squat, Tomislav will glad to provide some helpful guidance.

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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

jitterbug wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
No idea what you're talking about Ed, but then again... I likely don't care.


Mr.Johnson,

You claim to be an expert but you don't know muscles produce force and a bigger muscle compared to it previous self can always produce more force?

Since this is the case the fact of the matter is that it takes a bigger muscle to move a massive weight assuming standardization of course. It is not the heavy weight that keeps your muscles from adapting it's your change in behavior as you learn to hoist more reps.

If you standardize reps like RenEx do they won't lie to you. The only reason you have failed with using heavier weights is because you change your form, lose range of motion, or speed up. An expert should know this.

And the bit about neuromuscular coordination and skill, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH is not a concern for the advanced athlete that coordination bit happens primarily to a newbie. A person like yourself who has trained 30 years can't blame their failure to gain from training hard and using heavy weights on skill. You are way beyond that point sir.

I think you avoid heavy weights because it is hard work.

Ed


Just an observation on being a member here for many years and not taking a side.

Brian has tried different methods and found methods that works well. He points out possible pitfalls with getting stronger and not bigger by just adding more weight on a set.

I find the argument that the reason for this is because ones form would break down by adding to much weight.Or not be willing to work hard to be pure bullshit.


Brian wrote books and keeps records to prove those results. Had success and gets his balls busted for it.

Some of us here have noticed the same thing in our own training from a standardized consolidated routines.

I think that one can reach a point where you may be as strong as your going to get.

Lets say one would work his way up to squat 500 pounds for reps. That may be as far as one could go.Your as strong as your going to get. At some point you cant just keep adding weight or micro loading to reach 700 pounds. Its an extreme example but its something to think about. If that was the case we would all be breaking world records.

Mr.Jitterbug Ed.

To support what your are saying maybe you should could STFU and train the way you are saying for 2 years. Keep records of your exercises,Weight increases in your exercises. Measure any increase or decrease in your legs or arms ect.

Then report back on your OWN findings.Maybe if you can train some people. Prove your theory.Show us how it works.

Its that simple. It does not require answering my post with a question or ignoring it all together. Or picking apart every word I say.

Maybe those standard routines may work for some. But to think thats the standard for everyone is just plain non sense.
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jitterbug

farhad wrote:
Ed,

What do you mean by "profound implications"? What would they be? and why?




Mr.farhad,

they "have their diametrically opposed training styles (but both abbreviated High Intensity)lead in the same direction...and if so what element do they both share which could stand out as very important to muscle building? The implications for the natural, the normal and the aging could be significant."


I do see a great deal excitement in these outcomes.

I wonder how Mr.Johnston can can explain how Mr.Trentine can produce gains without variations and fancy rep schemes.

Ed
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

jitterbug wrote:
farhad wrote:
I wonder how Mr.Johnston can can explain how Mr.Trentine can produce gains without variations and fancy rep schemes.

Ed


What gains? I would have to see his photos as of late compared to what he produced before his FANCY $100k worth of equipment. How would Mr. Trentine (or you) explain my ability to produce changes and gains without investing all that time and money into manufacturing and using that equipment, while implementing basic free-weights, cable machines and other machines already in existence? Answer that, fancy pants.
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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
No need to doubt me... I'm at my limit. I know my body... likely a bit better than you. I have worked in rehab for 15 years and have done every variation of every lift imaginable. I think I have it all dialed in.


What are you weight/reps for Chin/Pull ups, One arm pull/chin ups, Squats, and Dips?

Pretty basic list, you are at your limit so these should all be very impressive.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

What are yours? Where are your photos? And when are you going to answer my simple question as to who you know on this board, have known and seen train to know that they are at their peaks? How are you so sure of that knowledge?

Go harass someone else... you and the other armchair personal trainers on this board who think they know what they're talking about while basing opinion on pure ignorance.
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Mr. Strong

Brian Johnston wrote:
What are yours? Where are your photos? And when are you going to answer my simple question as to who you know on this board, have known and seen train to know that they are at their peaks? How are you so sure of that knowledge?

Go harass someone else... you and the other armchair personal trainers on this board who think they know what they're talking about while basing opinion on pure ignorance.


You said you were at your limit in strength, we have asked for some of your weights/reps for some exercises, you get defensive, thus supporting my statement that no one on here has reached their limit in strength.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Because I don't want to communicate with you is proof that I have not reached my limit? Such illogical thinking merely supports why I choose not to communicate with someone so irrational, a liar, and person who has yet to post any photos of himself, but claims to do 10 sets of chins with huge weights around his waist... who can squat in perfect form from one rep to the next, but refuses to post a video demonstrating as much. When you start showing us what you can do or have done, then maybe others will follow. But in the meantime, I think some of you need to stick to what you know... trying to increase your lifting proficiency... while others will focus more on bodybuilding application. Two different things, don't 'cha know! OK, I guess you don't know... obviously.
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