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Direct Delt Work Necessary?
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Bastion

Direct Delt work.

Is heavy chest and back training enough?. I don't see any measurable difference weather I train shoulders directly or not.

I do know that direct arm/calf work is a necessity for me. I found that out back when I did consolidated training.

What's everyone else's experience/opinion on this?.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

It depends if you're training delts properly, relative to your response. My delts are affected very well with enough volume... higher reps sets, or lots of clusters. When I do hard and heavy, nothing happens (which makes it appear as though adding direct delt doesn't offer anything beneficial). If you've done enough experimentation, then you've answered your own question.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Bastion wrote:
Direct Delt work.

Is heavy chest and back training enough?. I don't see any measurable difference weather I train shoulders directly or not.

I do know that direct arm/calf work is a necessity for me. I found that out back when I did consolidated training.

What's everyone else's experience/opinion on this?.


Bastion,
good point about direct arm work; I made a similar observation when I dropped it from my consolidation style routine.

I think it depends on the exercise; raises don't build much muscle compared to pressing heavy. Then again I rarely press lying down, find flys more effective and already pressing OH.
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Turpin

Bastion wrote:
Direct Delt work.

Is heavy chest and back training enough?. I don't see any measurable difference weather I train shoulders directly or not.

I do know that direct arm/calf work is a necessity for me. I found that out back when I did consolidated training.

What's everyone else's experience/opinion on this?.


I `thought` indirect work / consolidation training was suffice for arms / delts and calves .... until I hit / pushed them with direct stimulus. The difference was most apparent !

T.

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HeavyHitter32

I do find dumbbell lateral raises, properly performed, help for my side delt. They work well in zones too.

My front and back delts respond well to chest and back work.

Occasionally, I will also perform shoulder presses, but it's rarely a movement I do consistently and maybe for only a few sessions here or there. The shoulder press on my Powertec multi-station is extraordinarily smooth and almost has a "cam" feel to it. Fun to do sometimes.
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Mr. Strong

Depends on what you are doing. If you are performing a single set for each exercise then you will probably need multiple exercises for a body part in order to have enough overall volume. But if your not limiting yourself set wise then you would be better off putting your time and effort into overhead pressing rather than raises for shoulder development.
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

If pressing and pulling seems to be enough for your shoulders IMO you are using them too much in those lifts. Concentrate on the chest and back more and get more out of the compounds. Then you may find direct shoulder work is useful. I think people use their shoulders far too much in push/pull compounds and it over works them.

Regards,
Andrew
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Tomislav wrote:

I think it depends on the exercise; raises don't build much muscle compared to pressing heavy. Then again I rarely press lying down, find flys more effective and already pressing OH.



You should have said: 'raises have not produced much muscle for me, compared to pressing heavy.' You cannot make the claim you made above. Everyone is different and therefore they will respond differently to certain exercises.

IF you actually did mean that it was based on YOUR experience, then never mind.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

Bastion,

How often do you train chest and back?

How often did you trained your delts?

what was your volume for direct delt exercises? Did you train to failure?

Do you train delts on the same day as chest and/or back?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

I would second that... heavy presses never did much for my delts, and particularly that full rounded look... I require direct stimulation via side and rear work. I find those who do a lot of pressing tend to have a lopsided appearance to the delts... full from the front and that's about it.
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Mr. Strong

farhad wrote:
Tomislav wrote:

I think it depends on the exercise; raises don't build much muscle compared to pressing heavy. Then again I rarely press lying down, find flys more effective and already pressing OH.



You should have said: 'raises have not produced much muscle for me, compared to pressing heavy.' You cannot make the claim you made above. Everyone is different and therefore they will respond differently to certain exercises.

IF you actually did mean that it was based on YOUR experience, then never mind.


Overhead pressing will build more muscle than the lateral raise in all parts of the shoulder.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.
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Acerimmer1

Mr. Strong wrote:
Overhead pressing will build more muscle than the lateral raise in all parts of the shoulder.


My rear delts don't even contract doing presses with a light dumbell just now.
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Acerimmer1

Brian Johnston wrote:
Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.


Oh yeah that's the real weakness in his argument. That he didn't post a picture.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

farhad wrote:
You should have said: 'raises have not produced much muscle for me, compared to pressing heavy.' You cannot make the claim you made above. Everyone is different and therefore they will respond differently to certain exercises.


farhad,
that doesn't make much sense; certainly not at the advanced level - there are no individual differences where raises are going to build more muscle than heavy pressing, at least not unless the athlete cannot press.

Brian,
good point about disproportionate front delt development but that is also a result of pressing technique; Scott press variety techniques predominately load the side delts.

Ace,
do you bother with raises?
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Acerimmer1 wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.

Oh yeah that's the real weakness in his argument. That he didn't post a picture.


Well, if he can demonstrate well developed deltoids, from every angle (and not just around the front like every other pair of delts I've seen that relied only on presses), then I certainly would not argue that presses are king FOR HIM.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

Tomislav wrote:
good point about disproportionate front delt development but that is also a result of pressing technique;


And what is the technique that would stimulate more side and rear head than what side and rear raises would? Do I have to press 150 pound dumbbells?

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backtrack

We need to get back to basics. Its sort of like the arguement of machines vs free-weights...Why not both? Direct and indirect.

To put the lateral head on, however, from my experience you need a lateral movement. Not too much resistance either. I prefer multiple sets too but hey ho.
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Tomislav

New York, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Tomislav wrote:
good point about disproportionate front delt development but that is also a result of pressing technique;

And what is the technique that would stimulate more side and rear head than what side and rear raises would? Do I have to press 150 pound dumbbells?




It's more about form but I bet Larry could have repped out with the 150 lb bells. Grimek and Eder could press the 150 lb bells for a dozen reps with a bit of backbend or strict for a few, but Larry was using a specialised pressing move to load the side delts.

When I do my hp's I shift the emphasis to the side delts by doing them in the BTN groove; there are many variations on the Scott press.


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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

What Scott is doing (and never did he do 150 pound dumbbells, so stop your exaggeration and guessing) was to perform the press with a arc toward midline of the body. Any type of press will affect the lateral head to some degree, but my point stands that ANY type of press will not fulfill one's genetic potential in the lateral head because the pressing movement does not stimulate that head through it's intended biomechanics/function.

If that were the case, why did Scott perform side raises? After all, if you got all you're going to get in the side head, no sense adding more exercises (which is what this post is about... "what do I need to do" as opposed to "what am I able to do."
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Brian Johnston wrote:
Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.


===Scott==
Unless a person can establish that they are a respected trainer/coach who has helped others build muscle I take anything they have to say with a grain of salt unless they post a picture at some point to at least show they've actually worked out and can back their opinion with experience. Many on here won't post a picture with the excuse that the picture can be used by some nut on the internet but it's more than likely that they don't want to post a picture because they have no muscle to show.
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NewYorker

New York, USA

entsminger wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.

===Scott==
Unless a person can establish that they are a respected trainer/coach who has helped others build muscle I take anything they have to say with a grain of salt unless they post a picture at some point to at least show they've actually worked out and can back their opinion with experience. Many on here won't post a picture with the excuse that the picture can be used by some nut on the internet but it's more than likely that they don't want to post a picture because they have no muscle to show.


Seems contrary to logic.

Pics... there are lots of valid reasons why folks don't want to post pics (too obvious and too many to mention). Equally obvious is that development does not validate ones advice.

"Experts" ... If you don't want to think for yourself, and just want to follow someone's advice, fine. But don't belittle others when they question what they are told. If someone can't respond to 10 or 20 seconds of inquiry without feigning indignation and hiding behind their resume, it should at the very least cause doubt.

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

NewYorker wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Brian Johnston wrote:
Says you... your opinion, man who refuses to post pic.

===Scott==
Unless a person can establish that they are a respected trainer/coach who has helped others build muscle I take anything they have to say with a grain of salt unless they post a picture at some point to at least show they've actually worked out and can back their opinion with experience. Many on here won't post a picture with the excuse that the picture can be used by some nut on the internet but it's more than likely that they don't want to post a picture because they have no muscle to show.

Seems contrary to logic.

Pics... there are lots of valid reasons why folks don't want to post pics (too obvious and too many to mention). Equally obvious is that development does not validate ones advice.

"Experts" ... If you don't want to think for yourself, and just want to follow someone's advice, fine. But don't belittle others when they question what they are told. If someone can't respond to 10 or 20 seconds of inquiry without feigning indignation and hiding behind their resume, it should at the very least cause doubt.



==Scott==
So I take it you listen to advice from people who might talk a good game but have nothing to back up their opinion? Listening to the likes of Mr. Strong is similar to asking a random homeless person on the street or some salesman on the phone what they think of delt development.There are several folks on here Like Brian Johnson, Turpin, Andrew, Landau and others who have demonstrated by photo's, knowledge and experience that they are worth listening to. Like so many on here, Strong has offered nothing but words.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

entsminger wrote:

==Scott==

Like so many on here, Strong has offered nothing but words.


At least one thing you got right Buddy. In that Strong is akin to yourself, lots of talk and trolling but very little useful so to speak.
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NewYorker

New York, USA

I think direct delt work is helpful. the delts have three heads. In particular the lateral and posterior.

The problem is you're not going to get very far isolating your delts with a dumbbell. Anyone remember the Rowing Torso machine?

A decent alternative for the rear delts is a reverse pec dec.
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