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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
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Tony Williams

For those who are interested, I received an email from Joanne Sharkey that the long dormant Mike Mentzer site is taking orders again.

The products available can be seen at MikeMentzer's site.

Tony
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HDROB

Excellent.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Tony Williams wrote:
For those who are interested, I received an email from Joanne Sharkey that the long dormant Mike Mentzer site is taking orders again.

The products available can be seen at MikeMentzer's site.

Tony


Are there still people interested in buying anything under that name? LOL

The best business is selling people on illusions.
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sgb2112

kulitsa wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
For those who are interested, I received an email

The best business is selling people on illusions.


Kultisa is correct in explaining why multi-set protocols dominate the market over HIT/low volume.

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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
kulitsa wrote:
Tony Williams wrote:
For those who are interested, I received an email

The best business is selling people on illusions.

Kultisa is correct in explaining why multi-set protocols dominate the market over HIT/low volume.



I could be wrong, but it's didn't the last training video Mike did with Markus Reinhardt (Think he died few days after shooting it?) involve TWO sets per bodypart?

How many more work sets do you think would need to be performed? Not counting warm up sets of course?

Doggcrapp guys do just one set + 2 rest-pause sets (So kinda 3 sets in a way) and are monsters.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

And regarding what "dominates the market"...actually I think Crossfit, P90X,"functional" training on balls, and Insanity currently dominate the market.

But are they the best way to train?

Much like Brittany Spears once dominated the music marketplace...but is she more talented than other lesser known female music artists who actually know how to play an instrument and can sing in person rather than lip-sync?
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Bastion

Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.


Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.
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Bastion

coach-jeff wrote:







I could be wrong, but it's didn't the last training video Mike did with Markus Reinhardt (Think he died few days after shooting it?) involve TWO sets per bodypart?

How many more work sets do you think would need to be performed? Not counting warm up sets of course?

Doggcrapp guys do just one set + 2 rest-pause sets (So kinda 3 sets in a way) and are monsters.


"DC Guys" are juiced to the gills.
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sirloin

kulitsa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.

Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.


My trainer, John Martini, current Mr Northern Ireland overall BB champion and NABBA Mr Universe competitor. He's now a drug user now, however he built his physique naturally using a combo of Mikes HD 1 and DY's 4 way split routine.
Heres John talking about his training about 3 months ago...
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=vE_T5jNAZLA

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sirloin

kulitsa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.

Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.


My trainer, John Martini, current overall Mr Northern Ireland BB champion and Mr Universe Competitor. He's a drug user now, however he built his physique naturally using a combo of Mikes HD 1 routine and DY's 4 way split.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

sirloin wrote:
kulitsa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.

Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.

My trainer, John Martini, current Mr Northern Ireland overall BB champion and NABBA Mr Universe competitor. He's now a drug user now, however he built his physique naturally using a combo of Mikes HD 1 and DY's 4 way split routine.
Heres John talking about his training about 3 months ago...
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=vE_T5jNAZLA



What are his height and weight, I guess it would be in centimeters and kilograms.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Bastion wrote


"DC Guys" are juiced to the gills.


Actually no they're not. Dante is very candid about the fact that he has worked with juicers, but many guys who follow that with success are not on gear.

And of course, lots of higher volume guys juice as well. I'd say following a 30-set per bodypart Arnold type routine would just about required gear...whereas DC could be done without it. Though the natural trainee would perhaps want to do straight sets, as opposed to going well beyond failure as Dante advocates.

Lots of ways to skin a cat as they say. BOTH abbreviated routines and moderate volume routines seem to work well for natural trainees.

Everyone has to find what works best for them. And probably cycling between low and moderate volume is a good way to go.

I agree with that Mike may have become a bot overly fearful of overtraining in later books, but the fact remains that some guys swear by those routines. If it works for them, who am I tell them they're doing something wrong?
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Bastion

kulitsa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.

Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.


If you just want 1. You could ask former natural Mr Universe John Heart. Who recently won another title. He was trained by Mike, and uses and trains his clients with Heavy Duty pretty much as written, from what I understand. He has clients who compete as well. Or ask Markus Reinhardt. I know he hasn't always been natural, but I'm sure he has/does work with some competitors. I've never and will never step on a stage (not my thing) but I've definitely made some good gains on the routine from this book every time I've gone back to it for a month or two.
Instead of being skeptical and relying on hearsay about any training method. Try it for 4-12 weeks and make an honest assessment for yourself.

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Bastion

Jeff...I don't have anything against DC training...Or any kind of sensible training for that matter. I just know that when I tried to acquire some info via email about DC. All I was asked about was what kinds of cycles I had previously done and what my plans are for future gear use. There were no questions about training or diet, which I found a bit odd. It seemed to me as if they didn't want any "failures" using their system or something.That's going back a few years though. I haven't kept up with any info on it since.

I've seen a DC training dvd. I played around with DC a bit, a few years back. As far as rest-pause, really low volume training. I've made some good progress with Pitt-Force Rest-pause training. It's not as technical or draining as DC. For me anyways. But no doubt, like any training method, there are naturals and gear users who will make great progress.

I think it really comes down to how someone thrives and can train consistently with their chosen style of training. I know quite a few guys who train 1-2 bodyparts a day, 4-5 days a week and have good builds. But they probably couldn't tell you how many sets they did yesterday. On the other hand, I know a few who keep meticulous training journals, and thrive on training once or twice a week. I guess if the individual is happy with their development, who's to argue?.
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Bastion

One system that I'm hesitant to try, and is used successfully by quite a few naturals is Max-OT. I watched a documentary that was about an average joe getting into contest shape training under Jeff Willet with Max-OT. I don't believe for a second that Willet or Skip Lacour were natural when they competed. They do seem to work with a lot of natural competitors. With that system, you always train in the 4-6 rep range which I can't see being too safe in the long run.
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sirloin

kulitsa wrote:
sirloin wrote:
kulitsa wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Many refer to it as Heavy Duty 1. The book that Mike released in 1993, is by far his best work, As far as bodybuilding is concerned. It was written around the time Mike was actually training a lot of bodybuilders hands on. Of all the training books I own. It's still one of my very favorites.

Name one (1) drug free bodybuilder that reached competitive shape following the routines from Heavy Duty 1.

My trainer, John Martini, current Mr Northern Ireland overall BB champion and NABBA Mr Universe competitor. He's now a drug user now, however he built his physique naturally using a combo of Mikes HD 1 and DY's 4 way split routine.
Heres John talking about his training about 3 months ago...
http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=vE_T5jNAZLA



What are his height and weight, I guess it would be in centimeters and kilograms.


Off season hes around 240lbs,at 5'8, contest shape around 225-230lbs.

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sirloin

coach-jeff wrote:
Bastion wrote


"DC Guys" are juiced to the gills.

Actually no they're not. Dante is very candid about the fact that he has worked with juicers, but many guys who follow that with success are not on gear.

And of course, lots of higher volume guys juice as well. I'd say following a 30-set per bodypart Arnold type routine would just about required gear...whereas DC could be done without it. Though the natural trainee would perhaps want to do straight sets, as opposed to going well beyond failure as Dante advocates.

Lots of ways to skin a cat as they say. BOTH abbreviated routines and moderate volume routines seem to work well for natural trainees.

Everyone has to find what works best for them. And probably cycling between low and moderate volume is a good way to go.

I agree with that Mike may have become a bot overly fearful of overtraining in later books, but the fact remains that some guys swear by those routines. If it works for them, who am I tell them they're doing something wrong?


I've a couple of David Henry's dvd's in my collection, indeed, he perform's only one or two (three on back) movements per bodypart in DC style. However, he uses a 3 on - off one frequency in both dvd's.

From my own experiences, and anyone I've ever trained or trained with over the last 20 years, there's not very many natural athletes that could tolerate that level of intensity and frequency 5-6 days per week. Don't got me wrong, am not putting DC training down, i'm just of the opinion that for the average natural trainee, it would need to be modified somewhat or even watered down if you will to suit the individual.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Ditto what sirloin is saying: Even with DC as prescribed*, it is too much for most natural trainees:

2 workouts, Alternated on a M-W-F schedule:
Mon - Chest/Delts/Tris/Back
Wed - Biceps/Forearms/Legs
Fri - Chest/Delts/Tris/Back
Mon - Biceps/Forearms/Legs
etc

And the 3-way split, for "advanced" trainees, isn't much better --- esp. since a Mo-Tu-Th-Fr schedule is recommended.

Even if you get 9-10 hrs sleep/night, most will hit a wall fast.

Mere mortals can make it last longer by only doing DC-style RP for 1-2 exercises per workout.

(*really advanced guys like Henry are doing 'widowmakers' for every bodypart, not just legs. This further exacerbates the discrepancy between what the juice boys can handle and what normal cats can do)
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Agree with DC frequency being too high for most mortals not on gear. There is ZERO chance I'd be able to productively train a muscle again in 3 days, after going way beyond failure. Of course more frequent training is foundational to DC however. As is extreme stretching. I disagree with both. At least based on my experience.

What I like about Dante' stuff is that he helps the average trainee understand that this stuff ain't rocket science. And that the reason many are not making gains is because they stopped using progressive overload somewhere along the line, and they only eat enough protein to support the physique of a girl scout.

I think he's a bit over the top in thinking it's a desirable goal to "bulk up" to almost 300 pounds however. And I think he even now realizes that is NOT even remotely sustainable or healthy long-term, as he's currently purposely losing weight.

Of course those who prefer "cumultive fatigue" workouts may not like DC's singular focus on always "beating your logbook" by lifting heavier and heavier weights on basic exercises that are a good match for YOUR body.

Many have pointed out that sooner or later you kind of hit a wall in terms of how much weight you can lift. And of course Mike Mentzer was also of the "train to get stronger, in order to get bigger" school of thought. And even though that simple "train to get brutally strong" model may have some limitations, I do agree that far too many trainees fail to build up even a decent amount of basic strength.

Thus cumulative fatigue routines make little sense to me, when being utilized by people with the strength levels of a 10 year old girl scout.

And of course, cumulative fatigue training and strength progression need not be mutually exclusive. One can still strive to get stronger...just within the context of a more "moderate volume" routines, as opposed to ultra low volume routines. Or perhaps within the context of higher rep ranges, as Dante recommends for trainees over age 34.

I know Mark Dugdale, a virtual poster boy for HIT workouts, says that always training to lift heavier started causing him some injuries, so he had to up the volume a bit, in order to get an equivalent stimulus from somewhat less dangerous loads.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Bastion wrote:
If you just want 1. You could ask former natural Mr Universe John Heart. Who recently won another title. He was trained by Mike, and uses and trains his clients with Heavy Duty pretty much as written, from what I understand. He has clients who compete as well. Or ask Markus Reinhardt. I know he hasn't always been natural, but I'm sure he has/does work with some competitors.


Yes, John Heart is a good example of someone who seems to thrive on rather minimalist routines.

Markus admits to previous gear use, but now says he trains without it.
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coach-jeff

Louisiana, USA

Bastion wrote:
One system that I'm hesitant to try, and is used successfully by quite a few naturals is Max-OT. I watched a documentary that was about an average joe getting into contest shape training under Jeff Willet with Max-OT. I don't believe for a second that Willet or Skip Lacour were natural when they competed. They do seem to work with a lot of natural competitors. With that system, you always train in the 4-6 rep range which I can't see being too safe in the long run.



Yeah..4 to 6 reps would DESTROY my joints and tendons for sure. No way in heck.

Far be it from me to accuse a man who says he's natural of being on gear...but I do find this video hilarious, which questions Jeff Willet's "natural" status.

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=ABIciElalwE
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dcshores

California, USA

I did just fine with DC being natural and old(40)! LOL. There is a cruise week built in. After about six months I was getting tired of that log book though.
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sirloin

dcshores wrote:
I did just fine with DC being natural and old(40)! LOL. There is a cruise week built in. After about six months I was getting tired of that log book though.


Hi Dr David,

I followed your training log on the Bill Sahli forum, i recall seeing some DC training being salted into your routine, i don't recall you training 5-6 days per week as advocated by DT. Is this something you did after your log?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

sirloin wrote:
... i don't recall you training 5-6 days per week as advocated by DT. Is this something you did after your log?


To be fair, DT does NOT advocate 5-6 days per week.

It's 3 days/wk for the 2-way split and 4 days/wk for the 3-way split.
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