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Ice Melts
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marcrph

Portugal

Long time Nautilus gym owner and negative-only training guru Gary Reinl shows how ice baths (cold plunge pools) delay recovery. Another fitness fraud!

http://www.youtube.com/...h?v=0UmJVgEWZu4
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HamsFitness

Two massive holes in that video:

lymphatic drainage is not just a function of local muscle action...it is primarily caused by diaphragm action from breathing: deep breathing is far more effective for drainage than muscle action alone.

The main premise is that natural inflammation response is good...don't interrupt it with ice...but for some reason they never allude to is that is OK to interrupt it with compression...seriously....they sell compression bands....subtle agenda guys

Don't use one argument to justify one thing and ignore for other things....

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marcrph

Portugal

HamsFitness wrote:
Two massive holes in that video:

lymphatic drainage is not just a function of local muscle action...it is primarily caused by diaphragm action from breathing: deep breathing is far more effective for drainage than muscle action alone.


Thanks for pointing out this salient point. I'm sure Gary Reinl would agree!


The main premise is that natural inflammation response is good...don't interrupt it with ice...but for some reason they never allude to is that is OK to interrupt it with compression...seriously....they sell compression bands....subtle agenda guys


The main premise is correct however. Gary Reinl is NOT a proponent of the usage of compression as a treatment modality except perhaps initially after an injury.


Don't use one argument to justify one thing and ignore for other things....



I agree....the truth is best! Ice baths for recovery issues are not backed by sound science. Cold temperatures for weight loss are another issue altogether. Cold temperatures for athletic performance are another issue also. These points are not well delineated in Dr. Darden's latest book.
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backtrack

Old time stongmen recommended ice baths.

for something such as this to be valued for a long time not sure it needs to backed by science.
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marcrph

Portugal

Dan_The_man wrote:
Old time stongmen recommended ice baths.

for something such as this to be valued for a long time not sure it needs to backed by science.


Many thought the earth flat.....until
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backtrack

Yes but in that context most people couldn't experience otherwise. A cold bath on the the hand is probably the only option people once had for a wash. If it made folks I'll it wouldn't have been up for consideration. The Romans believed in both hot and cold baths.
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marcrph

Portugal

Dan,

Perhaps you did not quite get the point....No one cares if someone uses cold showers, bathes in a cold mountain stream...or whatever else.

Point is....Cold ice baths and ice in general RETARDS recovery!

Cold showers are fine for weight loss....cooling off....just as the Stanford glove can help cool the blood for increased performance.

However, ice does not enhance the recovery process! That is ALL that is at issue on this particular thread.
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marcrph

Portugal

Avoid ice if you are doing eccentric protocols

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/22820210

http://www.runnersworld.com/...cant-hurry-love
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backtrack

Despite what you say ice baths are still used in athletics and accross most sports at pro level. I find it difficult to believe this is just a placebo effect.
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marcrph

Portugal

Dan,

I did too... but... I experimented.
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backtrack

Do you take warm or hot baths instead? :P
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HeavyHitter32

Dan_The_man wrote:
Despite what you say ice baths are still used in athletics and accross most sports at pro level. I find it difficult to believe this is just a placebo effect.


There are still questionable/false practices used in pro sports.

What's interesting, for example, is all of the recent "core" and oblique injuries baseball players have been experiencing in the last few years. This was unheard of not too long ago.

Victor Martinez of the Detroit Tigers missed the entire 2012 season because knee surgery which was needed because of a tear which happened during the workout. I remember the routine his trainer had him doing was moronic to say the least. It was just a major injury waiting to happen.

What's unfortunate is it takes years of many injuries, missed time, and surgeries before the trainers and mentality of such wake up - but then they seem to gravitate to something else false. lol
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S.M.Punisher

It's no more logical to say that ice is good because pro athletes use it than it is to say a certain training protocol is good because pro athletes do it.
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marcrph

Portugal

Dan_The_man wrote:
Do you take warm or hot baths instead? :P


Dan,

I recently did a complete bathroom restoration complete with a modular steam shower unit. I use the steam first at a moderate steam temperature, which makes my skin radiant, especially after my classic shaving technique. I then use water jets (multiple water jets) with warm water(which feels very hot due to the steam) as I gradually reduce the water temperature to cold, all the while terminating the steam. I like leaving the shower apparatus with a cool body temperature. I also use chromatherapy, aromatherapy and classical music. All told, this makes for a very pleasant grooming/cleansing experience.
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marcrph

Portugal

What really works for recovery?

Let Wayne Westcott tell us!

http://www.metrowestdailynews....
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

This a pathetically exaggerated point to bolster sales. Using ice works if applied to the right circumstance.

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marcrph

Portugal

AShortt wrote:
This a pathetically exaggerated point to bolster sales. Using ice works if applied to the right circumstance.



Ice is good for cooling drinks.... but there is no scientific basis for ice to help heal the body....ice retards healing.... there is not ONE study to prove ice efficacy in healing. Ice retards the inflammation (absolutely necessary for healing, and decreases lymph drainage) process. What seems to work is active recovery techniques, and electronic muscle stimulation.

I expect more from you.... Andrew.

P.S. I'm sorry for hurting ice sales! LOL
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AShortt

Ontario, CAN

marcrph wrote:
AShortt wrote:
This a pathetically exaggerated point to bolster sales. Using ice works if applied to the right circumstance.



Ice is good for cooling drinks.... but there is no scientific basis for ice to help heal the body....ice retards healing.... there is not ONE study to prove ice efficacy in healing. Ice retards the inflammation (absolutely necessary for healing, and decreases lymph drainage) process. What seems to work is active recovery techniques, and electronic muscle stimulation.

I expect more from you.... Andrew.

P.S. I'm sorry for hurting ice sales! LOL


Having kickboxed for years I have had injuries which repeated themselves as in the same type of injury (which allowed for lots of comparison). With ice they healed quicker across the board.
So simple a child could do it...

Regards,
Andrew
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marcrph

Portugal

AShortt wrote:
marcrph wrote:
AShortt wrote:
This a pathetically exaggerated point to bolster sales. Using ice works if applied to the right circumstance.



Ice is good for cooling drinks.... but there is no scientific basis for ice to help heal the body....ice retards healing.... there is not ONE study to prove ice efficacy in healing. Ice retards the inflammation (absolutely necessary for healing, and decreases lymph drainage) process. What seems to work is active recovery techniques, and electronic muscle stimulation.

I expect more from you.... Andrew.

P.S. I'm sorry for hurting ice sales! LOL

Having kickboxed for years I have had injuries which repeated themselves as in the same type of injury (which allowed for lots of comparison). With ice they healed quicker across the board.
So simple a child could do it...

Regards,
Andrew


I thought similarly...until I experimented! Science and physiology simply do not support ice therapy....neither does recent empirical evidence...

Andrew...come on in from the cold!
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marcrph

Portugal

Lots of science against ice therapy

http://www.macleans.ca/...of-the-ice-age/

The new term is METH

movement
elevation
traction
heat

This is better for optimal recovery
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marcrph

Portugal

Many years ago, Arthur Jones was way ahead on the issue of recovery. At the time no one was recommending recovery workouts as Arthur Jones did. We forget just how much this man knew.

Arthur Jones in: "Break-In Training"


"If a muscle is worked hard enough to produce an extreme degree of soreness within twenty-four hours, then that muscle should be worked heavily every day until no traces of soreness remain; if not, then the subject will probably be crippled for at least a week."

Arthur Jones continues:

"But if extreme muscular soreness results within twenty-four hours after a workout - and if no exercise is performed on the second day - then a literally crippling degree of soreness will result on the third day, and the fourth day will usually be far worse. The worst form of muscular soreness involves the attachments of the tendons and ligaments, and in extreme cases it may be literally impossible to straighten the arms or stand in a normal manner with your heels flat on the floor; in such cases, more exercise - heavy exercise - is the only possible solution. Without additional exercise, normal activity may be impossible for as much as ten days or two weeks. But such a situation can be - and should be - avoided; if a new trainee suffers that sort of results from his first workout, you have probably seen the last of him - although he might be tempted to come around a month or so later and burn your house down, with some possible justification."

The new term is called active recovery. Just like Arthur Jones stated many years ago. these additional workouts help with tissue perfusion and lymph fluid evacuation.... which is the basis of the recovery process. This active recovery technique should have been used in the 30/30/30 test subjects... and ... not the cold plunge baths.
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marcrph

Portugal

http://www.unh.edu/...bp19icebath.cfm

Ice baths... Not Beneficial for strength or soreness.
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