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Nwlifter

You yourself can't, at least right now, I used to be that way. What ppl miss is years of high calorie can eventually blunt insulin sensitivity and slow glucose and fat oxidation levels. MANY people have gotten 'fat' on over calorie high carb diets. Excess carbs BECOME fat in the liver if glycogen stores are full, it's how excess carbs are stored.

Low glycemic merely means the glucose enters the blood stream at a slower rate, it's still the same exact thing, 'glucose' whether it's from cane sugar, an apple, cotton candy, or wheat.


HeavyHitter32 wrote:


But I've been trying to make the point: you are NOT going to get fat eating "good" carbs including grain. When you're eating 40 grams of fiber a day, it's not going to happen. Trust me. The only way I could gain weight right now is to eat processed sugar/junk food. I cannot do it on grain, fruits, and vegetables.


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Average Al

Nwlifter wrote:
I agree, carbs aren't evil in their own, but fat gain, with high carb, in the absence of enough mono and O3 fats is way more dangerous than many realize.
Carbs converted to fats in the liver are a fat called Palmitic Acid (gotta state this again, as its very important for ppl's health), high palmitic acid is what causes many organ disfunctions (high BP, heart disease, thyroid issues, blood sugar issues, etc. ) But if sufficient mono fats are in the blood, this doesn't happen..


Exposure of islets to saturated fatty acid (0.5 mmol/l palmitic acid) in medium containing 5.5, 11.1, or 33.3 mmol/l glucose for 4 days resulted in a five- to ninefold increase of β-cell DNA fragmentation. In contrast, monounsaturated palmitoleic acid alone (0.5 mmol/l) or in combination with palmitic acid (0.25 or 0.5 mmol/l each) did not affect DNA fragmentation. Increasing concentrations of glucose promoted β-cell proliferation that was dramatically reduced by palmitic acid. Palmitoleic acid enhanced the proliferation activity in medium containing 5.5 mmol/l glucose but had no additional effect at higher glucose concentrations (11.1 and 33.3 mmol/l). The cell-permeable ceramide analog C2-ceramide mimicked both the palmitic acid?induced β-cell apoptosis and decrease in proliferation.


Very interesting! So there are lab studies showing a protective effect for the Beta cells from monounsaturated fats in the diet, even in the presence of palmitic acid...

I know palmitic comes from metabolism of excess carbs by the liver. But the studies I've seen suggest this pathway is small unless carb intake is well above caloric needs. Could consumption of alcohol and fructose be the bigger problem here?
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hit4me

Florida, USA

natural carbs, fats and proteins in moderation are not the problem unless you have some kind of disorder, i.e. celiac disease, irritable bowel syndrome, etc

stay away from the man made stuff and the gmos and everyone will be fine

wheat and other grasses are not the same today as they were 100 years ago, man has hybrid them to grow more in a smaller space, i.e. its all about profit instead of nutrition.....same thing with proteins and farm grown fish, not good
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Nwlifter

Yes, tons on that. google things like palmitate with liver, or beta cells, or ceramides, or with olive oil, etc.

HFCS does have a worse effect on DAG in the liver, it's metabolized directly in the liver and pretty rapidly. PUFA (veggie oils) are also pretty bad and inflammatory, but not related to ceramides.

If you need any references, I have tons saved on my pc I can link.


Average Al wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
I agree, carbs aren't evil in their own, but fat gain, with high carb, in the absence of enough mono and O3 fats is way more dangerous than many realize.
Carbs converted to fats in the liver are a fat called Palmitic Acid (gotta state this again, as its very important for ppl's health), high palmitic acid is what causes many organ disfunctions (high BP, heart disease, thyroid issues, blood sugar issues, etc. ) But if sufficient mono fats are in the blood, this doesn't happen..


Exposure of islets to saturated fatty acid (0.5 mmol/l palmitic acid) in medium containing 5.5, 11.1, or 33.3 mmol/l glucose for 4 days resulted in a five- to ninefold increase of β-cell DNA fragmentation. In contrast, monounsaturated palmitoleic acid alone (0.5 mmol/l) or in combination with palmitic acid (0.25 or 0.5 mmol/l each) did not affect DNA fragmentation. Increasing concentrations of glucose promoted β-cell proliferation that was dramatically reduced by palmitic acid. Palmitoleic acid enhanced the proliferation activity in medium containing 5.5 mmol/l glucose but had no additional effect at higher glucose concentrations (11.1 and 33.3 mmol/l). The cell-permeable ceramide analog C2-ceramide mimicked both the palmitic acid?induced β-cell apoptosis and decrease in proliferation.

Very interesting! So there are lab studies showing a protective effect for the Beta cells from monounsaturated fats in the diet, even in the presence of palmitic acid...

I know palmitic comes from metabolism of excess carbs by the liver. But the studies I've seen suggest this pathway is small unless carb intake is well above caloric needs. Could consumption of alcohol and fructose be the bigger problem here?


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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
You yourself can't, at least right now, I used to be that way. What ppl miss is years of high calorie can eventually blunt insulin sensitivity and slow glucose and fat oxidation levels. MANY people have gotten 'fat' on over calorie high carb diets. Excess carbs BECOME fat in the liver if glycogen stores are full, it's how excess carbs are stored.




First of all, what is high calorie? That is very individualistic. Getting fat is bad on anything. But there is too much fiber in "good" carbs and such foods are too filling and take time to digest and you feel satiated.

If I eat a bowl of oatmeal with fruit and a scoop of protein powder, I'm looking at 400 calories and not hungry for at least 4 hours.

Whole grain slice of bread with almond butter and apple for lunch - another 400 calories and not hungry for 3-4 hours.

Etc Etc. you get the idea.

People are getting fat on bleached flour/processed sugar carbs mixed with excessive fats (potato chips and fast food classic example)...not on healthy whole foods.


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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
You yourself can't, at least right now, I used to be that way.


I'm carrying A LOT less fat compared to when I was younger. Can you say you are a lower bodyfat today compared to when you were 20? I can.
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Nwlifter



First of all, what is high calorie?


OK, high, excess for that person, enough to cause excess fat gain.

That is very individualistic. Getting fat is bad on anything. But there is too much fiber in "good" carbs and such foods are too filling and take time to digest and you feel satiated.

Getting fat on carbs is most definately more risky than getting fat on a low carb diet.
There are millions of people who can easily gain weight, even eating fiber and 'good' (let's say sources of) carbs, as all glucose is glucose, it's just the packaging there in that's different.

If I eat a bowl of oatmeal with fruit and a scoop of protein powder, I'm looking at 400 calories and not hungry for at least 4 hours.

You are lucky then!

Whole grain slice of bread with almond butter and apple for lunch - another 400 calories and not hungry for 3-4 hours.

Etc Etc. you get the idea.


Yep, I used to be like that. Now, I could eat 3 of those almond butter breads, and be hungry 2 hours later. It's all about IR, and leptin levels.

People are getting fat on bleached flour/processed sugar carbs mixed with excessive fats (potato chips and fast food classic example)...not on healthy whole foods.




Yes, of course that is even more risky, but it's not the only way, and when a person does 'get fat' (as in the bad area, visceral) and excess carbs are part of the diet, palmitate levels rise and ceramides accumulate. Not to mention that thirtysome percent of peeople in the U.S. have excess liver fat, from being over weight and over carb consumption.

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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:


First of all, what is high calorie?

OK, high, excess for that person, enough to cause excess fat gain.

That is very individualistic. Getting fat is bad on anything. But there is too much fiber in "good" carbs and such foods are too filling and take time to digest and you feel satiated.

Getting fat on carbs is most definately more risky than getting fat on a low carb diet.
There are millions of people who can easily gain weight, even eating fiber and 'good' (let's say sources of) carbs, as all glucose is glucose, it's just the packaging there in that's different.

If I eat a bowl of oatmeal with fruit and a scoop of protein powder, I'm looking at 400 calories and not hungry for at least 4 hours.

You are lucky then!

Whole grain slice of bread with almond butter and apple for lunch - another 400 calories and not hungry for 3-4 hours.

Etc Etc. you get the idea.

Yep, I used to be like that. Now, I could eat 3 of those almond butter breads, and be hungry 2 hours later. It's all about IR, and leptin levels.

People are getting fat on bleached flour/processed sugar carbs mixed with excessive fats (potato chips and fast food classic example)...not on healthy whole foods.




Yes, of course that is even more risky, but it's not the only way, and when a person does 'get fat' (as in the bad area, visceral) and excess carbs are part of the diet, palmitate levels rise and ceramides accumulate. Not to mention that thirtysome percent of peeople in the U.S. have excess liver fat, from being over weight and over carb consumption.



You can eat 3 of those half almond sandwiches with an apple and be hungry two hours later? lol Wow.

With processed carbs, yes, you are hungry fast. It's empty stuff, no fiber, hits your bloodstream and digest fast. White bread vs whole grain bread...huge difference in what you can eat. One can eat a bag of chips and be hungry in no time. Similar to white rice vs brown/wild rice.
Most are not eating healthy carbs. Most people do not eat the recommended amount of fiber or fruits/vegs.

But, I'm also not saying 100% carbs either. Good fats and protein are very important.

How is your lipid panel and C-Reactive protein on the low carb diet? What type of low carb foods are you eating?
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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:

Yes, of course that is even more risky, but it's not the only way, and when a person does 'get fat' (as in the bad area, visceral) and excess carbs are part of the diet, palmitate levels rise and ceramides accumulate. Not to mention that thirtysome percent of peeople in the U.S. have excess liver fat, from being over weight and over carb consumption.



People are eating too much fat too. Those junk carbs contain a lot of fat (think fast food, potato chips, ice cream, etc.) and fat has more than twice as many calories as a gram of carbs. A lot of bad type of fats too in those foods.

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Nwlifter

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
You yourself can't, at least right now, I used to be that way.


I'm carrying A LOT less fat compared to when I was younger. Can you say you are a lower bodyfat today compared to when you were 20? I can.


I have more belly fat, but less arm and leg fat. Your metabolism must be working 'right'.

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Nwlifter

I thought you said slice of bread with almond butter, not a whole sandwich.

Yes for sure, most aren't eating carbs from better sources, and yes for sure, better sources with fiber do for sure satiate better. My point was, people can and do gain weight even eating like that, it's less than with junk food, but it's not 'impossible'.

Don't know on lipid panels.
I vary my diet, currently I'd say I'm eating medium carbs, about 175 grams a day.

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:


First of all, what is high calorie?

OK, high, excess for that person, enough to cause excess fat gain.

That is very individualistic. Getting fat is bad on anything. But there is too much fiber in "good" carbs and such foods are too filling and take time to digest and you feel satiated.

Getting fat on carbs is most definately more risky than getting fat on a low carb diet.
There are millions of people who can easily gain weight, even eating fiber and 'good' (let's say sources of) carbs, as all glucose is glucose, it's just the packaging there in that's different.

If I eat a bowl of oatmeal with fruit and a scoop of protein powder, I'm looking at 400 calories and not hungry for at least 4 hours.

You are lucky then!

Whole grain slice of bread with almond butter and apple for lunch - another 400 calories and not hungry for 3-4 hours.

Etc Etc. you get the idea.

Yep, I used to be like that. Now, I could eat 3 of those almond butter breads, and be hungry 2 hours later. It's all about IR, and leptin levels.

People are getting fat on bleached flour/processed sugar carbs mixed with excessive fats (potato chips and fast food classic example)...not on healthy whole foods.




Yes, of course that is even more risky, but it's not the only way, and when a person does 'get fat' (as in the bad area, visceral) and excess carbs are part of the diet, palmitate levels rise and ceramides accumulate. Not to mention that thirtysome percent of peeople in the U.S. have excess liver fat, from being over weight and over carb consumption.



You can eat 3 of those half almond sandwiches with an apple and be hungry two hours later? lol Wow.

With processed carbs, yes, you are hungry fast. It's empty stuff, no fiber, hits your bloodstream and digest fast. White bread vs whole grain bread...huge difference in what you can eat. One can eat a bag of chips and be hungry in no time. Similar to white rice vs brown/wild rice.
Most are not eating healthy carbs. Most people do not eat the recommended amount of fiber or fruits/vegs.

But, I'm also not saying 100% carbs either. Good fats and protein are very important.

How is your lipid panel and C-Reactive protein on the low carb diet? What type of low carb foods are you eating?


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Dan_The_man

Most peasant societies in Western Europe lived largely on Bread, pulses and seasonal fruit and vegetables. So good or bad these have been the staple diet for centuries until recently. I don't know if anyone has ever read Robinson Crusoe but he always wants for bread and eventually finds a way to make it.
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mentzer's boy

Half a liter (about 17 fl.oz) of whole milk works very well
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