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Consolidation Routine
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hutch57

Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?
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Turpin

hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?


NO !

T.
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farhad

Massachusetts, USA

hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?



Here we go.....again. this should be interesting. this has only been discussed only 3,478 times on this forum.

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hutch57

yes but nobody ever gives results either way,can't believe Mike would lie about his clients.
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MDieguez

For whatever it's worth there are pages full of testimonials on his website.
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PTDaniel

I got excellent strength gains from it, and some muscular size. I would use it as a form of variation, but it is founded on flawed principles. I don't think progressively cutting volume to the lowest possible levels permanently leads to the greatest gains in either strength or muscularity.
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Ray200

Tried all of Mentzer's routines: stagnation and negligible to non-existent strength and size increases were the rule. 13 months of my lifting career I'll never get back. You live and learn.

Ray
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

The exercises are pretty good, it's MM's frequency part that sucks. I'd give it a go at twice/wk or at worst on a Mon/Fri/Wed frequency. This would be a good cycle for 8-12 weeks, then back to more volume.

I've often said that the weak link in the exercise selection were the Calf Raises. It always struck me as odd that a guy who had genetically great calves would waste one of only 6 exercises on CRs AND considering how much calf stim one can get doing Squats. Especially odd, considering he never did direct Forearm work --- why not the same for calves?

It will depend on you, but if I were to do that CR in a cycle, I'd alternate that 6th exercises between:
* BB Curls
* Calf Raises (Leg machine Toe Presses to avoid spinal load)
* Reverse Curls
* ??? Pick a weak spot for you.

Do one of the exercises above for 3-4 weeks, trying to make a good weight increase each week. Then switch to another.

Scott
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noone

New York, USA

I meet with him 2 years before his death. He claimed there was a "flaw" in the one from HD2. I have posted the updated one here before, I just don't know where I have it written down right now.
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HeavyHitter32

When I first tried the CR under Mentzer's guidance (phone consultation) in late 1993, I did get some results from it as an intermediate.

However, he was having me perform it much differently than the direction he went with it.

I was doing this every 3-4 days.

Workout A

Squats
Pulldown
Incline Press
Standing Calf Raise

Workout B

Deadlift
Dips
Curl
Seated calf raise (this was my suggestion)

The variation of movements along with the single joint exercises - all done at a great frequency was far more effective than going to once per week and less. Sometimes I "cheated" and added a strip set which I found effective although he did not believe in them.
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Lioncourt

MDieguez wrote:
For whatever it's worth there are pages full of testimonials on his website.


Most of the ones that have pictures are not impressive at all, mostly just a bunch of overweight guys deluding themselves into thinking they are muscular. And the ones that are impressive used the older HD1 routine and nothing even close to consolidation.

I've emailed with Joanne and John Heart before, both advised to stay away from consolidation and stick to the HD2 ideal routine at the minimum.

To OP: Google the Boise Experiment done a couple of years ago. Those guys apparently got some great results doing HD2 ideal routine.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?


Arthur Jones could not believe Mentzer had a following and wrote books.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
...However, he was having me perform it much differently than the direction he went with it.

I was doing this every 3-4 days.

Workout A

Squats
Pulldown
Incline Press
Standing Calf Raise

Workout B

Deadlift
Dips
Curl
Seated calf raise (this was my suggestion)...


I like this more than the one in HDII and you were dead-on with your frequency. However, I still think that 25% of exercises for calves is too much.
Alternate:

WORKOUT A
Squats
Pulldown
Incline Press
Curls or Rev Curls or Wrist Curls

WORKOUT B
Deadlift (alt with High Pulls or Shrugs)
Dips
Standing or Seated CRs
Triceps Ext or Lateral Raises
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HeavyHitter32

simon-hecubus wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
...However, he was having me perform it much differently than the direction he went with it.

I was doing this every 3-4 days.

Workout A

Squats
Pulldown
Incline Press
Standing Calf Raise

Workout B

Deadlift
Dips
Curl
Seated calf raise (this was my suggestion)...

I like this more than the one in HDII and you were dead-on with your frequency. However, I still think that 25% of exercises for calves is too much.
Alternate:

WORKOUT A
Squats
Pulldown
Incline Press
Curls or Rev Curls or Wrist Curls

WORKOUT B
Deadlift (alt with High Pulls or Shrugs)
Dips
Standing or Seated CRs
Triceps Ext or Lateral Raises


Calf exercises even to failure use little overall energy. Calves were a weak point for me (and still are but to a lesser degree) so I wanted to hit them from a couple of different angles although the squats still gave me a little stimulation (but not a lot). Calves, delts and arm direct work seems to work well for me. Dips worked well on my triceps though.
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HeavyHitter32

PTDaniel wrote:
I got excellent strength gains from it, and some muscular size. I would use it as a form of variation, but it is founded on flawed principles. I don't think progressively cutting volume to the lowest possible levels permanently leads to the greatest gains in either strength or muscularity.


Nowadays, I think a consolidation type of routine might be good for someone who just wants to down cycle there training for a while to give their body a bit of a break for whatever reason.
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dipsrule

Pennsylvania, USA

Lioncourt wrote:
MDieguez wrote:
For whatever it's worth there are pages full of testimonials on his website.

Most of the ones that have pictures are not impressive at all, mostly just a bunch of overweight guys deluding themselves into thinking they are muscular. And the ones that are impressive used the older HD1 routine and nothing even close to consolidation.

I've emailed with Joanne and John Heart before, both advised to stay away from consolidation and stick to the HD2 ideal routine at the minimum.

To OP: Google the Boise Experiment done a couple of years ago. Those guys apparently got some great results doing HD2 ideal routine.



Ray Mentzer told me that the CR was not good for me.

But more so the extreme such as tow sets once every 10 to 14 days. Also the amount of food Mike told me to eat.

We talked a few time for 2 hours each time. He was in favor of the ideal routine.

I think a routine like Dr.Ken talks about is fine for most.

But im not talking about bodybuilding.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Calf exercises even to failure use little overall energy. Calves were a weak point for me (and still are but to a lesser degree) so I wanted to hit them from a couple of different angles although the squats still gave me a little stimulation (but not a lot). Calves, delts and arm direct work seems to work well for me. Dips worked well on my triceps though.


It wasn't 'energy' I was worried about. It was undue focus on a bodypart that might not need it.

I figured you had your own reasons for including calf work in both sessions.

I guess it's how you perform Dips. I usually do them elbows-out to focus on chest and I don't feel that much triceps from them. Plus, my pecs are quite FTF, while my tris are STF >> A heavy set of Dips, followed by a higher-rep set of extensions or pushdowns makes sense to me.

We're all different.

Nowadays, I think a consolidation type of routine might be good for someone who just wants to down cycle there training for a while to give their body a bit of a break for whatever reason.

Exactamundo. 'Down Cycle' is a good term.
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HeavyHitter32

simon-hecubus wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Calf exercises even to failure use little overall energy. Calves were a weak point for me (and still are but to a lesser degree) so I wanted to hit them from a couple of different angles although the squats still gave me a little stimulation (but not a lot). Calves, delts and arm direct work seems to work well for me. Dips worked well on my triceps though.

It wasn't 'energy' I was worried about. It was undue focus on a bodypart that might not need it.

I figured you had your own reasons for including calf work in both sessions.

I guess it's how you perform Dips. I usually do them elbows-out to focus on chest and I don't feel that much triceps from them. Plus, my pecs are quite FTF, while my tris are STF >> A heavy set of Dips, followed by a higher-rep set of extensions or pushdowns makes sense to me.

We're all different.

Nowadays, I think a consolidation type of routine might be good for someone who just wants to down cycle there training for a while to give their body a bit of a break for whatever reason.

Exactamundo. 'Down Cycle' is a good term.


I always found dips great for triceps, but rarely perform them these days. Even sticking in the middle 80% range of motion and avoiding deep stretch, I just feel more shoulder strain than I would like, so I typically avoid them. I have zero shoulder issues and want to keep it that way. I was considering getting an assistance machine that would allow me to get more reps which might alleviate the issue to some degree. However, I like to play things more safe these days. For triceps, I use either pushdowns or one arm overhead extensions with a dumbbell. Chest pressing still gives some stimulation to them as well. I never really tried close-grip chest presses as some swear by them.
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Tridentine

My workouts usually consist of 6-8 sets of various body parts.
I set per [after the warmup set]body part
I do this every 5th day.

Two days a week I do the bike for 30 minutes.
Is this considered a "consolidated workout"
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HH
I am with you on Dips ROM. I never go down past the point where my elbows are just BELOW delt level. Plus, I get more "iffy" shoulder feel from the elbows-back version.

I love CB benches but no longer go all the way down. I can't remember who, but someone mentioned a "three-board" rule-of-thumb for CBs.

I also like them on Naut Nitro or similar machines, where i can set the ROM. I also do partials off the supports on your standard olympic bench.
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S.M.Punisher

simon-hecubus wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Calf exercises even to failure use little overall energy. Calves were a weak point for me (and still are but to a lesser degree) so I wanted to hit them from a couple of different angles although the squats still gave me a little stimulation (but not a lot). Calves, delts and arm direct work seems to work well for me. Dips worked well on my triceps though.

It wasn't 'energy' I was worried about. It was undue focus on a bodypart that might not need it.


HH32 is still right though. The only thing you're really losing is the minute or two needed to do the calf raises. The amount of available resources "invested" in calves is small, so you might as well do them. I wasn't thinking of calves as taking up one of six exercises but of the other five exercises as taking up a sufficient enough investment in both recovery resources and time.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

farhad wrote:
hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?


Here we go.....again. this should be interesting. this has only been discussed only 3,478 times on this forum.



==Scott==
Yes and to think we could be discussing something even more original like machines vrs free weights or to failure or not to failure, ha ha.
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H.I.T. Believer

hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?


i did pretty good on mentzer ideal routine performed twice weekly..Sometimes i would go twice every 8 days. Twice every 8 days was a routine that many on his website after his death continued to endorse, of course a muscle group only got worked directly once a week [ not counting indirect work]

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HeavyHitter32

H.I.T. Believer wrote:
hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?

i did pretty good on mentzer ideal routine performed twice weekly..Sometimes i would go twice every 8 days. Twice every 8 days was a routine that many on his website after his death continued to endorse, of course a muscle group only got worked directly once a week [ not counting indirect work]



When you say 'twice every 8 days' are you saying one workout every 4 days? I could see something like HDII performed every 7-8 days because you could make the upper body workout hit all upper body muscles with some being emphasized more than others at times as Mike had it structured.
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sirloin

hutch57 wrote:
Does anyone have any positive results from using Mentzer's consolidation/athletes routine?


Not bad, though not optimal. I did better using a hybrid of the CR and ideal routines.
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