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Determine the Length of Your Workouts

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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Shoulders & Forearms
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Shoulders and forearms

I am coming to a conclusion that direct shoulder work is not necessarily beneficial and can be outright detrimental at times to both size and strength. Shoulders should be always toned and nicely "capped". Shoulder presses and lateral rises are unlikely exercises to help you achieve that look. My personal experience tells me that indirect recruitment of muscles involved will produce the best results. I gained more shoulder mass as a result of technical Thai Pad work and clinch. Thai Pads are not light at all, I use size large Twins, which is pro grade, quite heavy. Maneuvering those pads for my training partner and then switching to hitting them myself keeps my shoulders engaged for a prolonged period of time. Shoulders likely have more slow twitch fibers, hence they would thrive if the time under tension would be significantly extended. Same goes for forearms, they feel worked after Thai Pads session.

I am not trying to discount anyone else's experience and frankly speaking have not experimented enough with Scott presses, and many swear by them. Also I am not looking at it from the point of view of a bodybuilder. Please chime in if you have a similar experience, please also chime in if your experience is different from mine. I would like to hear stories from you and what worked for you. I am heading to the gym for my squats/pull ups day/farmers walks day.
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coalman426

In your case your right.boxers,baseball players I wouldn't recommend a lot of shoulder work.shoulders are tricky because you use them on everything.as far as bodybuilding you really need a compound movement and direct work on all three muscles.for several years I did shrugs,upright rows and military's only.they did not improve.I do more total sets on shoulders than any other muscle.I do think if you work them after chest you can get by ohps and just do the three lateral movements.that's what I'm currently doing on my twice a week routine.if I'm once a week ill do the ohp and devote a whole training day.few guys have great shoulders.rear delts are one of the parts I'm putting priority on this year and I'm seeing good results already.the rowing torso I believe is as good as the dumbbells on that movement but I think dumbbells are much better than the side lateral machine.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Coalman,

All valid points. Many pros have a separate day for shoulders. DY called upright rows a non exercise or something to that extent. Your routine looks pretty similar to what he does, dumbbells mostly. Out of curiosity what are your sets and reps on each movement?

There is a guy, who is also a boxer, he has improved greatly, especially his deltoids. He says the main exercise in his routine is clean and press. Caveat, you need to know how to do the movement properly.

Turpin, care to chime in on clean and press?

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sonny153

If I can throw in my two cents, most of you know I started out training as a powerlifter and only about 8 years ago now switched to more of a bodybuilding type routine based on Arthur Jones Bulletins which sat unread for years in my room. Anyway I'll enclose a picture when I was strictly powerlifting so you can see what I mean..at the time my chest workout was one exercise, bench presses. That was it, on a separate day I did lateral raises, front side and rear (yes even front) mainly to maintain shoulder integrity but I noticed I developed side and rear delts fairly good despite not using dumbbells over I think 20 lbs. I would usually get over 20 reps with those and I made no attempt to increase weight.

I felt they were one of the reasons despite doing over 400 lbs several times at that weight (I was about 194 at the time at 5'10) I never had a shoulder problem, or any other injury for that matter. For me I felt direct shoulder exercise was a big help..nothing I can prove but I feel it did.
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coalman426

I agree with sonny.I can only speak for myself but lateral including front ones should always be done in a well rounded bodybuilding routine.bench being a good example.everybody's favorite compound bench press will not give most guys great chest development.I've spent decades benching am still over four hundred pounds,walk around thinking my chest is big.when I posted pics on here it's obvious it's way behind the rest of my torso.all these years I trained wrong more like a power lifter.my new plan is decline only with an equal amount of squeezing movements for a year.I'm seeing improvements already and my shoulders are feeling great.my son on the other hand is going down that same road.he's addicted to benching.I feel the same about shoulders,compounds only are not going to developers them alone.sonny your shoulders look good.
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cmg

sonny153 wrote:
If I can throw in my two cents, most of you know I started out training as a powerlifter and only about 8 years ago now switched to more of a bodybuilding type routine based on Arthur Jones Bulletins which sat unread for years in my room. Anyway I'll enclose a picture when I was strictly powerlifting so you can see what I mean..at the time my chest workout was one exercise, bench presses. That was it, on a separate day I did lateral raises, front side and rear (yes even front) mainly to maintain shoulder integrity but I noticed I developed side and rear delts fairly good despite not using dumbbells over I think 20 lbs. I would usually get over 20 reps with those and I made no attempt to increase weight.

I felt they were one of the reasons despite doing over 400 lbs several times at that weight (I was about 194 at the time at 5'10) I never had a shoulder problem, or any other injury for that matter. For me I felt direct shoulder exercise was a big help..nothing I can prove but I feel it did.


Hey Sonny,

What is your bodyweight now?

Thanks,

Ron
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sonny153

Thanks Coalman! Good luck with your training
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sonny153

I just weighed myself today, 188...as you can see from my picture here I was kind of smooth looking at 194
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marcrph

Portugal

kulitsa,

Here is what worked for my sore shoulders. But first, I've always seen that my shoulder size goes up with overall size increase. Probable due to the inherent instability of the shoulder joint, that any time overall size increases, this indirectly allows the shoulder joint to increase in size due to the added overall stability of increased muscle mass.

But you must protect the unstable shoulder joint. First, do as Bill DeSimone states, and don't let the humerus go too far and stretch the shoulder joint....as in nautilus chest presses.

Second, do these face pulls to fix/prehab shoulders:

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=HSoHeSjvIdY

I do these with resistance bands.

Third,

Do rotator cuff exercise: internal and external rotations with resistance bands

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=EY2tNBOmvGs

Don't wait to prehab the shoulders after they start hurting.
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coalman426

I think as we get older it's better not to use full range of motion on certain movements.can't believe I'm saying that but I do think it will extend your lifting .I think Brian's right about mixing it up to.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

Thank you chiming in everyone.

Sonny,

you have great shoulders and I agree with you, weight more than 20 lbs is not needed to develop great shoulders. Rep wise, I think doing 20+ reps on all shoulder exercises is a good idea. If deltoids were composed of predominantly fast twitch fibers, we would not be able to do anything.

Mark,

Rotator cuff exercise, is what all the chiropractors always recommend. Face pulls are great as well. However it is difficult to crumb all of those into once a week routine. I might attempt to train twice a week and see what happens.
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coalman426

Marc you got me thinking.maybe it's not the nautilus decline that's clearing up my shoulder.it could be all the rear delt work 've been doing.I'm going to try face pulls.
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sonny153

Thanks kulitsa, I was pretty much clueless what I was doing back then, I just know the laterals seemed to help so I did them. Of course at the gym I used to see guys swinging up 40 lbs or more and calling them laterals which always surprised me because does anyone really care how much you lateral with? I mean when was the last time someone said "hey what you lateral?" But whatever, I liked them
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marcrph

Portugal

coalman426 wrote:
I think as we get older it's better not to use full range of motion on certain movements.can't believe I'm saying that but I do think it will extend your lifting .I think Brian's right about mixing it up to.


Over-stretching the shoulders with any sort of presses shows a lack of training wisdom, and especially so if done with heavy weights. The key words are asynchronous muscle fiber recruitment. All of the muscle fibers can be recruited in a step-by-step manner by lesser weights in the asynchronous manner (look this up) for best results by the mature trainee. Even weights as low as 50% of 1-rep max can spark asynchronous recruitment, which is why 30/30/30 works so well. Rep speed does not matter as long as one is safe and proceeds with asynchronous recruitment. This allows for gradual stretch in the extended positions to enable flexibility. The lighter weights enhance muscular endurance......WIN-WIN
....for mature-tard science......wise-up....get away from "bro-science" and the "bro"-tards.
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coalman426

It's always good to train smart however you've got to get in the game if you want to hit a homerun.that means years of heavy press in movements.training around injuries is part of the game.it's good to prepare but until I see a lot of guys training in that manner that have real size I'm sticking to my Arnold approach.there going to have to be bigger than trentine and vee.lol the guy training trentine looks like Mr. Peabody.I am enjoying the belt squats thanks for the tip.if I can get the wife to post my new pics you'll see good rear deltas development.didn't take rocket science just regular hard work.there's thinkers and doers.I'm a doer.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

sonny153 wrote:
...at the gym I used to see guys swinging up 40 lbs or more and calling them laterals which always surprised me because does anyone really care how much you lateral with?...


I always liked the pics of wide-shouldered Scott Wilson doing LRs with 10-lb DBs. It's all about HOW you do them, not HOW MUCH you use when doing them.

Another good one is the Hammer Tibia machine where they load them up with as many plates as possible and then do them standing up, pressing down with their weight to rotate the weight up. Silliness.
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sirloin

With regards to forearms, mine are currently 15 3/4", they've always been strong but fast to fatigue, they exploded in size when I took up arm wrestling a couple of years ago.

With shoulders, my experience had been somewhat different, when I was training on Wing Tsun, we were made to do hundreds of chain punches at a time, my shoulders would be completely on fire before we'd even reached the half way point, not surprisingly, heavy low rep training has produced best results for me. Fav shoulder movement is either d-b high pulls (bill sahli style) or machine lateral raises - max contraction style.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
I always liked the pics of wide-shouldered Scott Wilson doing LRs with 10-lb DBs. It's all about HOW you do them, not HOW MUCH you use when doing them.


Spot on! I saw a lot of pros with less than 20lbs dumb bells in their hands. Here is another thing, I have yet to see someone in a great shape who was doing one set to failure especially on the shoulders. Same goes for low rep schemes. High reps, multiple sets, low weights is what I see paired with great shoulders each and every time.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

That's the same size as Viator's at his prime! Those are huge forearms... you have to get a photo up of those pups!
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coalman426

Tsg has the best shoulders on this forum.there's a couple bigger guys but shoulders nobody's close.we should find out what he's doing.that guys shoulders are freaky.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

How about a reverse pec dec for rear deltoids?
What is your experience with the movement and is there any merit to it?
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tsg2513

Florida, USA

coalman426 wrote:
Tsg has the best shoulders on this forum.there's a couple bigger guys but shoulders nobody's close.we should find out what he's doing.that guys shoulders are freaky.


Wow, I never really considered my shoulders as that strong a body-part but thanks!

I don't do anything special. I usually start with a rear delt movement, then cable side laterals and seated smith machine presses on a very high incline. I have had two rotator cuff surgeries so I save presses for last so that I am very fatigued and use a light weight. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have been using very high rep ranges for the past couple of years with very good results.
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tsg2513

Florida, USA

kulitsa wrote:
How about a reverse pec dec for rear deltoids?
What is your experience with the movement and is there any merit to it?


I use it as my first shoulder movement. If I don't have access to it, I use cables/functional trainer machine for reverse flys.
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DNAHelix

New York, USA

tsg2513 wrote:
coalman426 wrote:
Tsg has the best shoulders on this forum.there's a couple bigger guys but shoulders nobody's close.we should find out what he's doing.that guys shoulders are freaky.

Wow, I never really considered my shoulders as that strong a body-part but thanks!

I don't do anything special. I usually start with a rear delt movement, then cable side laterals and seated smith machine presses on a very high incline. I have had two rotator cuff surgeries so I save presses for last so that I am very fatigued and use a light weight. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have been using very high rep ranges for the past couple of years with very good results.


Coalman is right, you have the best shoulders for sure.
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Acerimmer

Are you sure that technical Thai boxing didn't in fact shrink your brachialis and make your shoulders look more capped as a result of the deltoid insertion then being more visible closer to the bone.

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