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X Force Question for Dr. Darden
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marcrph

Portugal

Dr. Darden

In your opinion are X-Force machines state of the art for improving the cardiovascular system?

Marc
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Ellington Darden

marcrph wrote:
Dr. Darden

In your opinion are X Force machines state of the art for improving the cardiovascular system?

Marc


Good question. I don't know if any hardcore testing has been performed on the cardiovascular system during X-Force training. I have not done any. But I've experienced the effects. So my answer is . . . probably.

Ellington

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marcrph

Portugal

Arthur Jones once stated:

"the lifting of weights is so much superior for the purpose of improving the cardiovascular condition of a human being that whatever is in second place is not even in the running, no pun intended. That is to say, running is a very poor, a very dangerous, a very slow, a very inefficient, a very nonproductive method for eventually producing a very limited, low order of cardiovascular benefit. Any, ANY, result that can be produced by any amount of running can be duplicated and surpassed by the proper use of weight lifting for cardiovascular benefits. Now I realize that there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people in this country who don't understand that, who don't believe that, who will not admit that. Now these people are simply uninformed. Certainly, it's possible to run with no benefit, it's possible to lift weights with no benefit. I'm talking about the proper use of weight lifting; and properly applied, weight lifting will improve your cardiovascular benefit to a degree that is impossible to attain with any amount of running."



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marcrph

Portugal

No such thing as cardio.....so states James Steele

https://www.asep.org/...2012_Steele.pdf
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Average Al

I thought one of the characteristics of eccentric exercise is that it is metabolically less demanding than concenric exercise. This is supposed to be one of the advantages of using eccentrics with older, less robust clientele. Consider this study, for example:

----
Chronic Eccentric Exercise: Improvements in Muscle Strength can Occur with Little Demand for Oxygen

Am. J. Physiol. 276 (Regulatory Integrative Comp. Physiol. 45): R611-R615, 1999 LaStayo PC, et al

?The strength enhancements with eccentric training in our study, with very minimal cardiac demand, may have profound clinical applications. The strength improvements....occurred despite the eccentric training requiring the same or less V02?
-----

This suggests to me that it might not be as effective as conventional methods for conditioning purposes. Of course, XForce combines concentrics with overloaded eccentrics, so that might make a difference.
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HeavyHitter32

I can tell you first hand and with documented blood work the profound effect "cardio" exercise has had for me compared to years of just weight training. Every cardioloigst would say, "I told you so," I'm sure. It's almost important to do so leading into surgery if you're capable. My HDL increased 50% for starters - no change in diet. Blood pressure, lower resting heart rate, lower reting glucose, lower triglycerides, lower C- Reactive Protein, etc. Again, no dietary or other environmental changes. And it doesn't have to be long, drawn out marathon workouts. I'm talking 4-5 days per week, 25 min at a time. The research is just too overwhelming in support of such activity too. It also aids with reducing stress, anxiety, and helps with sleep (for me anyway).

There is also this potential issue with strength training that cardio helps overcome.

http://www.longecity.org/...rial-stiffness/
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marcrph

Portugal

Whatever "conventional" methods employed for cardio would fall short of the thorough muscle fiber recruitment caused by X-Force.

All doubts should evaporated after reading how Dr. Darden used only "4" reps (that is 1 more rep than 3 for you naysayers out there) in training Joe Cirulli.

http://www.drdarden.com/...ic.do?id=623995


Incredible results for an advanced trainee


Notice......NO ONE asked for pictures of Joe Cirulli's 10 pounds of muscular weight gain! LOL!

Roger Schwab knows X-Force, Arthur Jones, and Nautilus. He praises X-Force.

http://www.15minutecorporatewa...

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HeavyHitter32

That type of brutal training to failure will force one to train very briefly and infrequently at some point. Even McGuff (who I guess you're siding with once again?) even conceded deconditioning would happen with very intense, very brief training because of all the rest days required.

But, if XForce is working good for you - and you are seeing better endurance in your day-to-day activities, energy levels, lower blood pressure, improvement in your LDL and HDL, lower inflammation (CRP), lower resting heart rate, low trigs, and lower resting glucose...then congrats...it's working well for you. I never saw any of that with any weight training routine including when I used very intense full body workouts 3 days per week back in the day. It still comes down to the SAID principle and different adaptations with various exercise approaches.
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Average Al

marcrph wrote:
Whatever "conventional" methods employed for "cardio" would fall short of the steep inroad caused by X-Force. All doubts should evaporate after reading how Dr. Darden used only "4" reps (that is 1 more rep than 3 for you naysayers out there) in training Joe Cirulli.

http://www.drdarden.com/...ic.do?id=623995


Incredible results for an advanced trainee


Notice......NO ONE asked for pictures of Joe Cirulli's 10 pounds of muscular weight gain! LOL!

Roger Schwab knows X-Force, Arthur Jones, and Nautilus. He praises X-Force.

http://www.15minutecorporatewa...

Yeah.....X-Force is the King of Cardio!



Is deep inroad always synonymous with high cardiac demand and/or cardiovascular or metabolic conditioning? (I'm asking, I really don't know.)

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marcrph

Portugal

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
That type of brutal training to failure will force one to train very briefly and infrequently at some point. Even McGuff (who I guess you're siding with once again?) even conceded deconditioning would happen with very intense, very brief training because of all the rest days required.

But, if XForce is working good for you - and you are seeing better endurance in your day-to-day activities, energy levels, lower blood pressure, improvement in your LDL and HDL, lower inflammation (CRP), lower resting heart rate, low trigs, and lower resting glucose...then congrats...it's working well for you. I never saw any of that with any weight training routine including when I used very intense full body workouts 3 days per week back in the day. It still comes down to the SAID principle and different adaptations with various exercise approaches.



HH32,

I hope you are doing fine!

I like a lot of your words. We can certainly see that much research is needed for a more thorough understanding of the role resistance training plays in cardiovascular improvement. If you listen to the Roger Schwab interview, I believe the bulk of my concerns on this issue reside.

I think you realize that I thrive on very hard training, but I would not choose the word "brutal" in regards to X-Force high intensity training, even though in reality it may be just that to some. I have gotten used to such hard training. I have taught myself over the years to train in a very intense manner, which many would be frightened if they witnessed such training as an eye witness. However, your points are well taken by myself without any dispute.

I never posted any thoughts/ideas that would require any censorship on any other blog. Anyone who deliberately censors people for differing ideas seems cult-like, and is something I want nothing to do with. So I certainly am not siding with anyone...as my contrarian nature finds such a "siding" repugnant.

So what do we/I know. As it stands now.....not really all that much. Arthur Jones with his experiment of "Total Conditioning" at West Point was and still is as enlightening as anything on the subject of cardiovascular fitness. The studies laid out above were just reviews of literature....and certainly concluded little on cardiovascular fitness.

What I know....from my 1st hand experience

1) Heavy eccentric only exercise does not do much for my wind.

2) interval sprinting/running does wonders for my wind, but is extremely hard to recover from.

3) The HIT rush factor helps my wind.....but seems less effective than running.

3) One hard set of leg presses causes my heart rate and breathing rate to rise significantly about 1 minute after the set concludes.

4) The Mentzer consolidated routine never helped my wind to significantly improve.

5) I've achieved extremely good clinical numbers from quality diet control, walking/hiking, and very high intense training.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
Call it cardio or whatever you want I have found that there is no comparison to ones over all fitness and heart lung condition from fast paced no rest between sets Viator type training vrs the benefits of cardio exercises such as swimming, running and cycling.Having done both I have found my body function way better when I'm doing triathlons than when I was training fast paced and breathing hard weight training. In practical applications I'll pit any triathlete who is in good shape over some guy who gets all his cardio from weight training. The tri guy will kick the weight trainees ass.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

HH: What sort of cardio have you been doin? (activity: Walking? Biking? Swimming?)
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HeavyHitter32

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
Call it cardio or whatever you want I have found that there is no comparison to ones over all fitness and heart lung condition from fast paced no rest between sets Viator type training vrs the benefits of cardio exercises such as swimming, running and cycling.Having done both I have found my body function way better when I'm doing triathlons than when I was training fast paced and breathing hard weight training. In practical applications I'll pit any triathlete who is in good shape over some guy who gets all his cardio from weight training. The tri guy will kick the weight trainees ass.


Kind of my experience although I've never done triathlons. My heart rate stays around 120 bpm (give or take) and it can vary.
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HeavyHitter32

simon-hecubus wrote:
HH: What sort of cardio have you been doin? (activity: Walking? Biking? Swimming?)


I was doing a lot of biking and felt great, but I was at it 6-7 days per week and it was getting to my knees (achiness) from over-use. So I backed off it and pretty much do fast walking with good walking shoes on treadmill. Much better on knees. I do plan on revisiting the biking, but will mix it up more with the treadmill.
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HeavyHitter32

marcrph wrote:

What I know....from my 1st hand experience

1) Heavy eccentric only exercise does not do much for my wind.

2) interval sprinting/running does wonders for my wind, but is extremely hard to recover from.

3) The HIT rush factor helps my wind.....but seems less effective than running.

3) One hard set of leg presses causes my heart rate and breathing rate to rise significantly about 1 minute after the set concludes.

4) The Mentzer consolidated routine never helped my wind to significantly improve.

5) I've achieved extremely good clinical numbers from quality diet control, walking/hiking, and very high intense training.


I can relate.

Hanging in there - surgery is Tuesday morning!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
A co-worker of mine has been swimming competitively since college and off and on swims one or two miles a day. his standing heart rate is about 56 and when he get on a stress test they have to really crank up the machine to even get his pulse to start to go up. Unfortunately due to genetic high cholesterol issues he recently had a heart attack when a chunk of plaque broke off and lodged in a valve or whatever in his heart. Most likely this would have killed the average fellow but with his bull like strong heart it kept beating long enough to get to the hospital where they saved his life. Nobodies heart gets that kind of fitness doing Nautilus workouts no matter what they are.
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marcrph

Portugal

Average Al wrote:
Is deep inroad always synonymous with high cardiac demand and/or cardiovascular or metabolic conditioning? (I'm asking, I really don't know.)



Al,

I don't know either. I have doubts of any who profess deep knowledge of cardiovascular improvement regimens.

First, there was extensive supervision of Casey Viator's "famous" workouts by Arthur Jones himself. Secondly, Dr. Darden supervised Joe Cirulli's workouts. Don't bet on Dr. Darden going easy on Joe's workouts. Furthermore, Total Conditioning was very closely supervised. Therefore, close supervision and oversight seem necessary for optimal CV results from weight training regimens. I don't think a "Big 5" weekly workout is enough to improve one's wind sufficiently, but may be ideal for health enhancements. There is a definitional difference in my mind between cardiovascular health improvements vs. wind improvements. A lack of proper supervision during weight training sorties and the above definitional difference between health and wind is so often misunderstood by trainees seeking to enhance their fitness level.

We need a modern day "Nautilus" company to do PROPER research on these topics.
The term "inroad" is not very descriptive of anything going on in the human body. I much prefer total muscle fiber recruitment within the anaerobic window.
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marcrph

Portugal

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
Call it cardio or whatever you want I have found that there is no comparison to ones over all fitness and heart lung condition from fast paced no rest between sets Viator type training vrs the benefits of cardio exercises such as swimming, running and cycling.Having done both I have found my body function way better when I'm doing triathlons than when I was training fast paced and breathing hard weight training. In practical applications I'll pit any triathlete who is in good shape over some guy who gets all his cardio from weight training. The tri guy will kick the weight trainees ass.


Scott,

Hope you are doing well!

There seems to quite a difference between training for health purposes and training to IMPROVE the wind. Most likely, a resistance training circuit of Nautilus machines performed with a rush factor would improve health considerably. Wind improvement is another matter. No one uses circuit weight training to improve their 1500 meter world record run.....YET!

I'd certainly be impressed if a world class runner....800 meter....or....1500 meter...used X-Force to enable a Gold medal in the Olympics.
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Brian Johnston

Ontario, CAN

You're talking a sport-SPECIFIC skill set being demonstrated vs. an improvement in wind in GENERAL. A person (athlete/coach) would have to be an idiot to avoid specificity of sport training while embracing a general method to improve 'wind' in general.

Now, if you were to take the average person and compare 'wind' improvement in many different activities, and the two training methods were sprinting and doing full body no-rest weight training, which do you think will give better 'wind' when that person has to use various muscles of the body. Consider the Farmer's walk with a heavy-enough load and having to walk quickly for a hundred yards.
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marcrph

Portugal

Brian,

Excellent points

Thanks
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NewYorker

New York, USA

Many top American and European track athletes incorporate strength training in their programs. Whether utilizing weights or not. Circuits or not. It's less popular amongst African athletes.

I do not know of any involved with Xforce. Perhaps because of its limited availability.

Athletics, biking, swimming and weight lifting are interesting sports, because of their objective nature. Athletes and coaches at the top-level could teach commercial-consumer trainers quite a bit.
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marcrph

Portugal

http://www.nature.com/.../hr201042a.html

Interval aerobic exercise training significantly decreases arterial stiffness.

Resistance training increases arterial stiffness.

Time to pause and think.....what is the wise approach to exercise?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

marcrph wrote:
http://www.nature.com/.../hr201042a.html

Interval aerobic exercise training significantly decreases arterial stiffness.

Resistance training increases arterial stiffness.

Time to pause and think.....what is the wise approach to exercise?


Interval aerobic exercise is a form of resistance training. Just lower resistance and higher reps.

So the question is: At what pointS on the resistance (i.e. intensity) and #-of-reps curves does the transition take place from good to bad (resistance) or bad to good (reps)?
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marcrph

Portugal

The study in ? employed a treadmill....not RT.

Certain types of resistance training do cause arterial stiffness. Clearly the studies are there to indicate this!

I tend to agree with you that lighter weights may lessen the arterial stiffness effect of resistance training. Can anyone afford any arterial stiffness effect? Can you imagine what the occlusive effect of Super Slow reps would have on arterial stiffness.....not to mention isometrics.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

marcrph wrote:
The study in ? employed a treadmill....not RT.

Certain types of resistance training do cause arterial stiffness. Clearly the studies are there to indicate this!...


I don't doubt that, Marc. But where is the cutoff?

Treadmills have resistance too.

I'm betting that high intensity to-failure stuff is on the high end of stiffness-causing effects.

But what about lesser-intensity sets done in aerobic fashion?

Somewhere on the curve from low-resistance high reps (treadmill) to high-resistance low reps (powerlifting, TF stuff) the tide turns. Where EXACTLY is that point?
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