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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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must be done . . . and quickly."
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sirloin

Watched a documentary that aired here in the UK a while back, it showed that the Icelandic and Nordic people were the longest living and healthiest people. Their diet was not an 80/10/10 diet, but one rich in fish, lean grass fed meats and dairy, berries, breads, pure water etc.
Of course, their lifestyle also plays a big role, their not so well known for their endurance, its their rich history of strength and power.

Another couple mentioned was Ethiopia and Kenya, known for their great endurance and mostly grain based diet 80/10/10 diet (they dont eat this way by choice you understand, its just they cant afford much meat...which is grain fed), they were in the mid 30s on the top 50 list for healthest people.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

who cares about all of these studies debating the best ways to train or be healthy

just get out and move around, whether it be running, walking, riding your bike, aerobic classes, spinning classes, hiit, body exercises, heavy duty, hit, six days a week weight training, swimming

the key is to just get out and move around and do it safely

the only time it matters is if your are in rehab for an injury or a stroke/heart attack or if you are a professional athlete

for us average joes, does it really matter...I don't think so


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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:


Of course, the original 'aerobics', as outlined in Ken Cooper's book, didn't employ high intensity interval training. The programs were built around lower intensity steady exercise, with duration or distance as key variables.



And rightly so. Evidence abounds showing Ken Cooper's lower intensity steady-state exercise works well. I use my Assault air bike for daily rides...only occasionally going above the VT1 level. I don't need the HIIT type training to be healthy, and the time savings of HIIT does not apply well to my circumstances.



It would have been interesting if longer duration, lower intensity cardio had been included as a fourth exercise modality in this study.


The researchers don't want to test against Ken Cooper's recommendations, because the results are already in. Every wonder why these HIIT studies are always short term? The mitochondrial concentration is going to be higher with Cooper's recommendations in the long term. These researchers know this. The half-life of mitochondrial is less than a week. That is why exercising every 2 weeks with HIT leads to deconditioning. You will not hear that at BBS or John Little. The Kenyans rule endurance running because they have applied experience. Compete against them with HIIT and a Paleo diet at one's own peril. Better yet...read about the Tarahumara.



Personally, I like the longer duration (30 minute) interval training programs found in Martin Gibala's book. The intense portions are not as intense as something like a true Tabata.

At my age, super high intensity of effort is difficult to reach and sustain. By doing a longer HIIT routine once or twice a week, I feel comfortable doing my strength training routines at a more comfortable pace, with longer rest intervals between exercises (or sets).


A non-athlete does not need HIIT to be healthy. The slow twitch fibers contain the most mitochondria, and blood vessels, and are uniquely situated to burn fat residing in muscle tissue. Weight training increases mitochondria in fast twitch fibers as well as does HIIT, but this does not make for an good endurance athlete. Not to mention that there appears no limit to mitochondria density with Cooper's type of conditioning, which leaves HIIT in the dust after a few weeks. Healthy endurance training is quite sustainable...HIIT....not so much.....Tabata....impossible.

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=FnwIKZhrdt4


How long are your daily assault bike rides? If you are doing it daily, and long enough to get an endurance improvement, doesn't the time start to add up? What about chronic wear and tear on the joints?

As far as Kenyan marathoners are concerned: I'm sure they are putting in a lot of miles relative to what a non athlete might do. That might well contribute to a high level of mitochondrial density in the muscles used for running. But if you are right about the short half life of mitochondria, then the only way to maintain that high density is to continue indefinitely with that kind of high mileage routine. That will take it's toll on the body, even if you are as thin as a marathoner.

As Cooper has gotten older, he has scaled back his recommendations for how much cardio someone should do to be healthy, and is no longer in the 'more is better' camp. I think he is now recommending something like no more than 75 minutes a week at vigorous intensity, or 150 minutes a week at a moderate intensity, which doesn't seem excessive to me. But that won't build up the high mitochondrial density that you see in a marathoner, any more than HIIT will.




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Grant D

Illinois, USA

If one or anyone is including "aerobics" in an "exercise" regime then they are literally spinning the wheels of foolishness, and have fallen victims to the bulljive brainwashing of the lamestream fitness injurystry (sic). No discussion needed as this "debate" has been settled oh about a generation ago

ALL TRAINEES must educate themselves prior to undertaker-ing aerobics which will eventually hurt and harm you ... not to mention waste your time. However, if you really enjoy the activity as a hobby and for fun ... it will still harm you ... eventually
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Grant D

Illinois, USA

Recall statics must be resisted with a gravity circuit. If one is using enough of a load on a static hold, then muscle failure will be the limiting factor. That assumes that one is able to focus this load intensely into a specific muscle group. Once failure begins to occur you cannot squiggle, cheat, outroad, coax, coach, "get one more", but allow the load to "fall" under control.

PS: Gravity circuit means WEIGHT that will fall to the center of Planet Earth if dropped :)
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Grant D

Illinois, USA

My Latest Exercise Session

... 3 weeks since last session
... Leg Press Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds with only 12 segundos on final pyramid step. That means I will prescribe no load increase next LPMP session, but will expect to get near the final 20 seconds on this steppe plateau.
... Chest Press Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds with a run-a-weight (sic ) on last phase of 18 seconds. I will prescribe a 5 pound increase next session as I expect my gains in size and strength will be adequate to handle these additional 5 pounds :)
... Chest Row Done-In-One plus 5 pounds at 61/61. I may hold weight and begin to approach a 90 second positive as I am runnin-outta-stack ... a nice problem to have :)
... Triceps Pullback plus 10 pounds on these Max Pyramid holds!
... ... ... Leg Press Test: plus 20 pounds and plus one rep as I "performed" 20/20 and 20/20 SuperSlow style as a validating test. I grade my results A+, but I did expect it!

Recall all of my gains this week occurred on a three week recovery, and these specific exercises haven't been done in at least 8 weeks! Now, how do I validate this true success?
a) gains in load
b) gains in strength
c) gains in muscle size and appearance, that's how!

Now, how does one assure these gains?
a) direct muscle load via gravity
b) focused intensity (got enough weight?)
c) limit volume per session (to avoid system overload aka ROBAT)
d) extended recovery time (to allow growth) ... that's how!

It is an absolutely incredible feeling to leave an exercise session and not feel tired, but rather notice specific and isolated fatigue in a few muscles. It is also an incredible accomplishment to not be enamored with "gym time" and basically plan one's life with a 20 minute window once every two to three weeks and still be the strongest and best conditioned in the gym. (if you are smaller this can be a relative comparison). Recall I spend less time-under-load (TUL) than most of you spend on chalk-time.

One other tip. One must remove their "grip strength limits" when peforming pulldowns and chest rows.

Cheers! Grant

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hit4me

Florida, USA

Grant D. wrote:
If one or anyone is including "aerobics" in an "exercise" regime then they are literally spinning the wheels of foolishness, and have fallen victims to the bulljive brainwashing of the lamestream fitness injurystry (sic). No discussion needed as this "debate" has been settled oh about a generation ago

ALL TRAINEES must educate themselves prior to undertaker-ing aerobics which will eventually hurt and harm you ... not to mention waste your time. However, if you really enjoy the activity as a hobby and for fun ... it will still harm you ... eventually


sorry, but you are an idiot

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Nwlifter

Grant D. wrote:
If one or anyone is including "aerobics" in an "exercise" regime then they are literally spinning the wheels of foolishness, and have fallen victims to the bulljive brainwashing of the lamestream fitness injurystry (sic). No discussion needed as this "debate" has been settled oh about a generation ago

ALL TRAINEES must educate themselves prior to undertaker-ing aerobics which will eventually hurt and harm you ... not to mention waste your time. However, if you really enjoy the activity as a hobby and for fun ... it will still harm you ... eventually


LOL yeah, who needs cardio health, increased vascular diameter, stronger and more elastic arteries... oh yeah people who want to live longer!


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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
Grant D. wrote:
If one or anyone is including "aerobics" in an "exercise" regime then they are literally spinning the wheels of foolishness, and have fallen victims to the bulljive brainwashing of the lamestream fitness injurystry (sic). No discussion needed as this "debate" has been settled oh about a generation ago

ALL TRAINEES must educate themselves prior to undertaker-ing aerobics which will eventually hurt and harm you ... not to mention waste your time. However, if you really enjoy the activity as a hobby and for fun ... it will still harm you ... eventually

sorry, but you are an idiot



The great and powerful OZ has spoken, wonder if he'll ever step out from behind the curtain, wheres Toto when ya need em.

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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:



How long are your daily assault bike rides?



` ~ 30 minutes



If you are doing it daily, and long enough to get an endurance improvement, doesn't the time start to add up? What about chronic wear and tear on the joints?

The aerobic training benefits the slow twitch fibers the most, which supports joint function.


As far as Kenyan marathoners are concerned: I'm sure they are putting in a lot of miles relative to what a non athlete might do. That might well contribute to a high level of mitochondrial density in the muscles used for running. But if you are right about the short half life of mitochondria, then the only way to maintain that high density is to continue indefinitely with that kind of high mileage routine. That will take it's toll on the body, even if you are as thin as a marathoner.


Thus, introduce moderation as regards aerobic training.

As Cooper has gotten older, he has scaled back his recommendations for how much cardio someone should do to be healthy, and is no longer in the 'more is better' camp. I think he is now recommending something like no more than 75 minutes a week at vigorous intensity, or 150 minutes a week at a moderate intensity, which doesn't seem excessive to me. But that won't build up the high mitochondrial density that you see in a marathoner, any more than HIIT will.






This we do know....HIIT has to have the intensity dialed down to be sustained...and offers little additional health benefits. I bet a moderate amount of sustainable aerobics will build healthy levels of mitochondria while increasing endurance as much as a non-athlete needs. HIIT is more sexy....and HIT needs to prove any statements of a single exercise system meeting the health needs of all folks. Maybe a 5 set SuperSlow exercise session would do the job....but the evidence is FAR from conclusive. Furthermore, I resent such recommendations based on personal opinions. There is a certain level of aerobic conditioning that needs to be fulfilled by a productive exercise regimen. I suggest a concentration of effort to ascertain if a certain method meets such criteria.
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sirloin

Grant D. wrote:
My Latest Exercise Session

... 3 weeks since last session
... Leg Press Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds with only 12 segundos on final pyramid step. That means I will prescribe no load increase next LPMP session, but will expect to get near the final 20 seconds on this steppe plateau.
... Chest Press Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds with a run-a-weight (sic ) on last phase of 18 seconds. I will prescribe a 5 pound increase next session as I expect my gains in size and strength will be adequate to handle these additional 5 pounds :)
... Chest Row Done-In-One plus 5 pounds at 61/61. I may hold weight and begin to approach a 90 second positive as I am runnin-outta-stack ... a nice problem to have :)
... Triceps Pullback plus 10 pounds on these Max Pyramid holds!
... ... ... Leg Press Test: plus 20 pounds and plus one rep as I "performed" 20/20 and 20/20 SuperSlow style as a validating test. I grade my results A+, but I did expect it!

Recall all of my gains this week occurred on a three week recovery, and these specific exercises haven't been done in at least 8 weeks! Now, how do I validate this true success?
a) gains in load
b) gains in strength
c) gains in muscle size and appearance, that's how!

Now, how does one assure these gains?
a) direct muscle load via gravity
b) focused intensity (got enough weight?)
c) limit volume per session (to avoid system overload aka ROBAT)
d) extended recovery time (to allow growth) ... that's how!

It is an absolutely incredible feeling to leave an exercise session and not feel tired, but rather notice specific and isolated fatigue in a few muscles. It is also an incredible accomplishment to not be enamored with "gym time" and basically plan one's life with a 20 minute window once every two to three weeks and still be the strongest and best conditioned in the gym. (if you are smaller this can be a relative comparison). Recall I spend less time-under-load (TUL) than most of you spend on chalk-time.

One other tip. One must remove their "grip strength limits" when peforming pulldowns and chest rows.

Cheers! Grant



https://m.youtube.com/...h?v=c4psKYpfnYs
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

This we do know....HIIT has to have the intensity dialed down to be sustained...and offers little additional health benefits. I bet a moderate amount of sustainable aerobics will build healthy levels of mitochondria while increasing endurance as much as a non-athlete needs. HIIT is more sexy....and HIT needs to prove any statements of a single exercise system meeting the health needs of all folks. Maybe a 5 set SuperSlow exercise session would do the job....but the evidence is FAR from conclusive. Furthermore, I resent such recommendations based on personal opinions. There is a certain level of aerobic conditioning that needs to be fulfilled by a productive exercise regimen. I suggest a concentration of effort to ascertain if a certain method meets such criteria.


Basically, I agree with most of this. It isn't that hard to be active enough to be aerobically fit for non athletic purposes. I suspect that easy intervals, or steady state cardio, or just lots of walking and other physical activity, all will do the job, Maybe even a couple of rush factor strength training workouts each week is good enough. But it certainly won't hurt to do a little more, just to be sure. Clarence Bass seems to have done pretty well with just one strength session, and one cardio session each week, coupled with some regular hikes or walks.
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Average Al

I've come to appreciate the role that Grant D. plays here. He is Dr. Darden's Court Jester....
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acas1959

I think Grant D is just trolling ...

Cheers
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Average Al

acas1959 wrote:
I think Grant D is just trolling ...

Cheers


Didn't mean to imply that Dr. D requested his service. It is strictly a voluntary effort on his part.... If nothing else, he must be amusing himself.
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ATP 4 Vitality


Average Al wrote:

Basically, I agree with most of this. It isn't that hard to be active enough to be aerobically fit for non athletic purposes.



That is why my recommendations of VT1 aerobic training is apropo. A sustainable way to improve health has value. It is horrible for well-intentioned Nautilus aficionados to denigrate all types of aerobic training.


I suspect that easy intervals, or steady state cardio, or just lots of walking and other physical activity, all will do the job,


as long as the whole body is being used in a rhythmatic manner

Maybe even a couple of rush factor strength training workouts each week is good enough.

Although this will not hurt.....VT1 training will result in much less stress and more recovery. Rush factor workouts will always increase stress....ie. cortisol

But it certainly won't hurt to do a little more, just to be sure. Clarence Bass seems to have done pretty well with just one strength session, and one cardio session each week, coupled with some regular hikes or walks.


CB is inspirational. He also does not buy into the anti-aerobic nonsense, which by the way.....was NEVER proved as redundant exercise by Arthur Jones.
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hit4me

Florida, USA


CB is inspirational. He also does not buy into the anti-aerobic nonsense, which by the way.....was NEVER proved as redundant exercise by Arthur Jones.


Jones was an advocate of aerobic exercise, he just incorporated the aerobic exercise into the strength exercise....i.e circuit training, if you have ever trained as Jones instructed you would definitely be winded.....however, if you did not train that way, then other types of aerobic exercise would be beneficial



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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:

Didn't mean to imply that Dr. D requested his service. It is strictly a voluntary effort on his part.... If nothing else, he must be amusing himself.


Although this person uses certain questionable debate tactics, he is right about gravity. Although I was the first to correctly identify gravity importance on this forum, even I did not fully realize the effects this invisible undefined force has on the body, especially the nervous system.

Before the HIT Bro's bring up the subject of CNS burnout, there are no credible sources on CNS burn out. The CNS does a myriad of tasks, and if the CNS ever burns out, weight lifting would be the last thing to focus on.

Proprioceptive sensory receptors such as the Golgi Tendon Organs, and the muscle spindles, along with gravity's effects illicit muscle fiber recruitment for the good or bad. Only the inexperienced would deny the effects of heavy weights and gravity on these sensory organs. We are all hardwired from birth to gravity's effects. These organs are self-protective. These organs turn off muscle fiber recruitment to protect against self-destruction. We can benefit without using such heavy weights and avoid recruitment of these self-protective organs. On the other hand, athletes would need to develop this phenomenon to some degree. But all of us non-athletes cannot avoid gravity's effects, but we should rather embrace gravity to our benefit. That is in a nutshell why overcoming isometrics are not ideal, but if an all-out over-coming isometric is utilized, you can be sure of a spike in blood pressure as well as compression issues. Let the HIT parrots begin.
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Grant D

Illinois, USA

How to "Dial In" a 303030

The 303030 is not necessarily locked in to a rigid temporal pace. To properly apply this technique one must be sure to have a heavy enough load that can be directly focused (via gravity circuits) into a particular muscle (group). If a trainee starts too heavy then the 2nd 30 may be unachievable. Thus, it is best to start too light thus assuring a full 2nd 30 seconds on the positive phase. After this 2nd 30 is achieved one can then further reduce the speed of the 3rd 30 ... perhaps even going to 45 plus seconds if the weight is too light. In the next session add about 5% to load. After a couple sessions one will see that last 30 runaway, and the trainee would be unable to stop the downward final negative. After this session one would be able to get to a 30 30 3rd 30 likely in one to two sessions. Once this is achieved then one can add 2-1/2 to 5 pounds AFTER a full 303030 is achieved.

Keys to Progress ... a) direct focus and concentration on muscle. b) constant slow speed on positive.

So to reflect on questions from earlier ... a 303030 is a trigger point to add weight, and one may expect a 30-30-12 then a 32-30-24 then a 32-31-30 then ADD WEIGHT. Recall 303030 is brutal when focused ... which is why IMO Dr Darden altered to 151515 plus reps for low tolerance trainees or newbs

Cheers Grant
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sirloin

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:

Didn't mean to imply that Dr. D requested his service. It is strictly a voluntary effort on his part.... If nothing else, he must be amusing himself.

Although this person uses certain questionable debate tactics, he is right about gravity. Although I was the first to correctly identify gravity importance on this forum, even I did not fully realize the effects this invisible undefined force has on the body, especially the nervous system.

Before the HIT Bro's bring up the subject of CNS burnout, there are no credible sources on CNS burn out. The CNS does a myriad of tasks, and if the CNS ever burns out, weight lifting would be the last thing to focus on.

Proprioceptive sensory receptors such as the Golgi Tendon Organs, and the muscle spindles, along with gravity's effects illicit muscle fiber recruitment for the good or bad. Only the inexperienced would deny the effects of heavy weights and gravity on these sensory organs. We are all hardwired from birth to gravity's effects. These organs are self-protective. These organs turn off muscle fiber recruitment to protect against self-destruction. We can benefit without using such heavy weights and avoid recruitment of these self-protective organs. On the other hand, athletes would need to develop this phenomenon to some degree. But all of us non-athletes cannot avoid gravity's effects, but we should rather embrace gravity to our benefit. That is in a nutshell why overcoming isometrics are not ideal, but if an all-out over-coming isometric is utilized, you can be sure of a spike in blood pressure as well as compression issues. Let the HIT parrots begin.


"Although i was the first to correctly identify gravity importance on this forum"

Careful now, dont want to put your back out kissing your own arse Sir Issac.

"Let the HIT parrots begin"

Love using that word dont ya...You have just dircetly parroted what John Little said about CNS burnout in the comments section of his lastest interview on coperate warrior....who's a pretty boy then?

Plenty of reasons for non-athletes to train "heavy", only the ignorant would deny the positive effects.



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sirloin

Grant D. wrote:
How to "Dial In" a 303030

The 303030 is not necessarily locked in to a rigid temporal pace. To properly apply this technique one must be sure to have a heavy enough load that can be directly focused (via gravity circuits) into a particular muscle (group). If a trainee starts too heavy then the 2nd 30 may be unachievable. Thus, it is best to start too light thus assuring a full 2nd 30 seconds on the positive phase. After this 2nd 30 is achieved one can then further reduce the speed of the 3rd 30 ... perhaps even going to 45 plus seconds if the weight is too light. In the next session add about 5% to load. After a couple sessions one will see that last 30 runaway, and the trainee would be unable to stop the downward final negative. After this session one would be able to get to a 30 30 3rd 30 likely in one to two sessions. Once this is achieved then one can add 2-1/2 to 5 pounds AFTER a full 303030 is achieved.

Keys to Progress ... a) direct focus and concentration on muscle. b) constant slow speed on positive.

So to reflect on questions from earlier ... a 303030 is a trigger point to add weight, and one may expect a 30-30-12 then a 32-30-24 then a 32-31-30 then ADD WEIGHT. Recall 303030 is brutal when focused ... which is why IMO Dr Darden altered to 151515 plus reps for low tolerance trainees or newbs

Cheers Grant


Both are brutal when focused...

Lets RECALL, in a thread from last year called "EVITAGEN", Dr Darden states...

"I believe the hormone only becomes active when you reach a deep inroad
In a less than 90 second set time.

You might also try the 15-15-15, plus 8-12 faster rep cycle, its a shorter version of 30-30-30 and the results may be even better"

There you have it from the horses mouth.

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Grant D

Illinois, USA

Note to trainees in 2017. It is EXTREMELY crucial to allow one's body/system proper recovery tine. It is perhaps even more critical, maybe even life-saving, to AVOID SYSTEM OVERLOAD. On'e fine tunes biological body is ALWAYS battling various issues ... from cancer micro-cells, environmental toxins, illness, disease, "bugs" etcetera. If one is over-training (AKA ROBAT, outroading, joint damage, injury, pathogens, anti-immuno foods (grains/carbs)) one will compromise the continuous defensive that your immune system and growth cycles embark.

I have seen recent posting on this very site that exhibit extreme outroading which no doubt compromise one's system.

Cheers in Health!

Grant
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Grant D

Illinois, USA

All Progressive Trainees
It is very important to allow recovery and limit session volume unless one falls victim to the tribulations of ...
System Overload
Joint Pain
Joint Destruction
Immune System Compromise
Inability to fight invasive germs
Inability to fight internal cell mutations
Premature Aging
Injuries
At any age it is possible to progress in strength and maintain health. Of course this requires a High Fat, Moderate Protein, Near Zero Carb Diet.
Welcome to 2017 with appreciation to Dr Darden and Professor Little.
Cheers in great strength and a healthy system. If your time has past perhaps it is not too late...
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Bastion

Professor Little?.
It's official. Grant D is definitely a troll.
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Grant D

Illinois, USA

My latest session all increases manifested as growth in strength load and some seconds.
Back Extension 31 31 32 plus 5 pounds
Pull Down Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds
Shoulder Shrug Max Pyramid plus 5 pounds
Wrist Curl a test pump at 32 34 27

Cheers. Why have you all given up on progress....
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