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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

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State of Exercise Science 2017
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sirloin

Frank Scott wrote:
I think Entsminger makes a good point (above) about the deleterious effect of heavy training past a certain age. It impacted on me because I have been training in the 4 - 6 rep range. I enjoy it, a meaningful weight from the start and short sets. But as I get older it would probably make more sense to train in the ten, twelve or fifteen rep area.
There is a caveat, which is that however one trains, those last reps need to be hard or it isn't working. Even just to 'keep in shape' requires significant effort.


Strength - noun

A - the quality or state of being physically strong

B - the capacity of an object or substance to withstand great force or pressure

For me, high reps isnt strength training. I see middle aged and older gents in the gym all the time whom use "safe" weights for set after set of meduim and high reps. In the time ive been a member of this gym (4 years), these men are still using the very same weights.

Physiologically and realistically, its much easier to focus on and make regular increases with a 1-6 rep range vs high rep sets, especially on big full body movements. Ive also found its the smaller muscle groups give out first on high rep compoumd movements.

In my opinion, older people require "heavy" training moreso than the younger generation. For the very reasons ive stated before.

Why not use a combination of both low and high reps? Best of both worlds.


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Frank Scott

Thank you sirloin, a considered and thoughtful response which has merit.
Heavy also has value in regard to sarcopenia of course. Now to spend hours wondering...
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Nwlifter

Heavy increases neural output along with hypertrophy where lighter is 'just' hypertrophy mostly, so for sarcopenia, either would be great, and depending on the person, most older folks have rotator issues, hip, knee etc, so lighter might be superior for most older trainees.
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Frank Scott

And better for their blood pressure.
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sirloin

Nwlifter wrote:
Heavy increases neural output along with hypertrophy where lighter is 'just' hypertrophy mostly, so for sarcopenia, either would be great, and depending on the person, most older folks have rotator issues, hip, knee etc, so lighter might be superior for most older trainees.


If wear and tear is a problem, I dont believe light weights for high reps are the answer. Am working with 3 herniated discs and its the heavy low rep training thats greatly improving the situation. Id also say the kind of hypertrophy that comes with heavy training is different to the kind that comes with light high rep training, in terms of density.

The likes of Fred Hahn has been training elerdly clients for years employing heavier loads. It can be done safely and productively.

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sirloin

https://m.youtube.com/...h?v=0zjhSlJN-Qw

Great lady, obviously there arent too many like her around, but then again, who Know's whats possible. If we all just resign ourselves over to light weights because of our age we'll never know. One thing I'll say is this, theres a middle aged gent on this forum who looks 10-15 years younger than he is, still deadlifting over 3x his bodyweight, overhead press more than his bodyweight for reps etc, in spite of having a history back trouble himself.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip
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StuKE

sirloin wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/...h?v=0zjhSlJN-Qw

Great lady, obviously there arent too many like her around, but then again, who Know's whats possible. If we all just resign ourselves over to light weights because of our age we'll never know. One thing I'll say is this, theres a middle aged gent on this forum who looks 10-15 years younger than he is, still deadlifting over 3x his bodyweight, overhead press more than his bodyweight for reps etc, in spite of having a history back trouble himself.

Is it Grant D?
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Nwlifter

sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Heavy increases neural output along with hypertrophy where lighter is 'just' hypertrophy mostly, so for sarcopenia, either would be great, and depending on the person, most older folks have rotator issues, hip, knee etc, so lighter might be superior for most older trainees.

If wear and tear is a problem, I dont believe light weights for high reps are the answer. Am working with 3 herniated discs and its the heavy low rep training thats greatly improving the situation. Id also say the kind of hypertrophy that comes with heavy training is different to the kind that comes with light high rep training, in terms of density.

The likes of Fred Hahn has been training elerdly clients for years employing heavier loads. It can be done safely and productively.



If wear and tear lowers tensile strength of connective tissue, then absolute load across those connective tissues can be an issue. Example, my vastus medialis tendon, I can squat, or do leg extensions etc. with medium to lighter weights, with as much volume as I want, but 5Rm loads will pull too hard and my knee will be out of commission for months. Will never go heavy for quads again, but medium to lighter, all good.

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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip


This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".
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Crotalus


just to 'keep in shape'


For me, this out look would bring on a slippery slope backwards .... as even at my age I still try to kill every workout. If I thought I'm just going to go through the motions 'just to maintain ' or 'keep in shape' I'm already fighting a losing battle ... but that's just me ; I still enjoy training and training hard.

I think problems arise with bad form and not whether you choose high or lower reps ... and like Sirloin said, best of both worlds is to mix it up .
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sirloin

Nwlifter wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
Heavy increases neural output along with hypertrophy where lighter is 'just' hypertrophy mostly, so for sarcopenia, either would be great, and depending on the person, most older folks have rotator issues, hip, knee etc, so lighter might be superior for most older trainees.

If wear and tear is a problem, I dont believe light weights for high reps are the answer. Am working with 3 herniated discs and its the heavy low rep training thats greatly improving the situation. Id also say the kind of hypertrophy that comes with heavy training is different to the kind that comes with light high rep training, in terms of density.

The likes of Fred Hahn has been training elerdly clients for years employing heavier loads. It can be done safely and productively.



If wear and tear lowers tensile strength of connective tissue, then absolute load across those connective tissues can be an issue. Example, my vastus medialis tendon, I can squat, or do leg extensions etc. with medium to lighter weights, with as much volume as I want, but 5Rm loads will pull too hard and my knee will be out of commission for months. Will never go heavy for quads again, but medium to lighter, all good.



Id a knee injury myself a few years back (slipped at work), their bastards, but light weights and high reps werent in my thinking, i didnt see how that would improve my situation. Instead i used heavy statics, then progressed to negatives, then partials, then back to a normal ROM.
With my back, i cant back squat or do RDL's, but i can goblet squat well for medium reps with still decent loads, and do heavy farmers walks (great alternate for those whom can no longer do RDL's).

My training parnter / sis-in-law has shoulder, neck and knee issues from her rugby days, she couldnt do standing military press (even with the empty bar), but she can do 65lb one arm DB push presses with a neutral grip, she worked up to max singles today with 75lb and no issues. Same with BB benches, she cant do them, but can do heavy supine DB presses for sets of 5.
For her legs, the prowler pushes (short rom piston like steps) and goblet squat with a wider stance is working wonders. Shes overcome and adapted. Like i said, it can be done.
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sirloin

StuKE wrote:
sirloin wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/...h?v=0zjhSlJN-Qw

Great lady, obviously there arent too many like her around, but then again, who Know's whats possible. If we all just resign ourselves over to light weights because of our age we'll never know. One thing I'll say is this, theres a middle aged gent on this forum who looks 10-15 years younger than he is, still deadlifting over 3x his bodyweight, overhead press more than his bodyweight for reps etc, in spite of having a history back trouble himself.
Is it Grant D?


LOL, yeah, prof Grant "the hulk" D:)
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hit4me

Florida, USA

sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip

This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".


makes sense

I will say this, a few days ago I tried 3 sets 10 of moderate weight, no failure with probably 2/2 cadence and I could feel my joints actually hurting more, i.e. elbows and and left knee and it was full body and did not break a sweat or did not get winded
so, sunday I went back to my one set to failure, "heavy" training with 4/2/4 cadence, full body and felt no pain in the joints whatsoever...I do not use more weight than my joints can handle and I do not strain, grind or grip tightly...I shoot for 8 to 12 reps
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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip

This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".


makes sense

I will say this, a few days ago I tried 3 sets 10 of moderate weight, no failure with probably 2/2 cadence and I could feel my joints actually hurting more, i.e. elbows and and left knee and it was full body and did not break a sweat or did not get winded
so, sunday I went back to my one set to failure, "heavy" training with 4/2/4 cadence, full body and felt no pain in the joints whatsoever...I do not use more weight than my joints can handle and I do not strain, grind or grip tightly...I shoot for 8 to 12 reps


Ive been taking several spoonfuls of this stuff everyday, joints feel a lot better than they did before:)

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Frank Scott

hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Frank Scott wrote:
hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks


i do wednesdays and sundays...all other days i briskly walk (treadmill or around town)
one set per exercise with a 4/2/4 cadence
about 13 exercises each workout
4 exercises for legs
2 exercises for chest, shoulders and back
1 exercise for biceps
1 exercise for triceps
1 exercise for forearms
2 exercises for the core

i was doing 3x/week, but was overtraining so i reduced to 2x/week

its what i enjoy doing at this point of my life


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hit4me

Florida, USA

sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip

This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".


makes sense

I will say this, a few days ago I tried 3 sets 10 of moderate weight, no failure with probably 2/2 cadence and I could feel my joints actually hurting more, i.e. elbows and and left knee and it was full body and did not break a sweat or did not get winded
so, sunday I went back to my one set to failure, "heavy" training with 4/2/4 cadence, full body and felt no pain in the joints whatsoever...I do not use more weight than my joints can handle and I do not strain, grind or grip tightly...I shoot for 8 to 12 reps


Ive been taking several spoonfuls of this stuff everyday, joints feel a lot better than they did before:)



i take fish oil too, not that brand though

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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
Frank Scott wrote:
hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks

i do wednesdays and sundays...all other days i briskly walk (treadmill or around town)
one set per exercise with a 4/2/4 cadence
about 13 exercises each workout
4 exercises for legs
2 exercises for chest, shoulders and back
1 exercise for biceps
1 exercise for triceps
1 exercise for forearms
2 exercises for the core

i was doing 3x/week, but was overtraining so i reduced to 2x/week

its what i enjoy doing at this point of my life




Did ya try the farmers walks H?
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hit4me

Florida, USA

sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
Frank Scott wrote:
hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks

i do wednesdays and sundays...all other days i briskly walk (treadmill or around town)
one set per exercise with a 4/2/4 cadence
about 13 exercises each workout
4 exercises for legs
2 exercises for chest, shoulders and back
1 exercise for biceps
1 exercise for triceps
1 exercise for forearms
2 exercises for the core

i was doing 3x/week, but was overtraining so i reduced to 2x/week

its what i enjoy doing at this point of my life




Did ya try the farmers walks H?


not yet, I have a bum shoulder, so letting that heal before I try them

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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
Frank Scott wrote:
hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks

i do wednesdays and sundays...all other days i briskly walk (treadmill or around town)
one set per exercise with a 4/2/4 cadence
about 13 exercises each workout
4 exercises for legs
2 exercises for chest, shoulders and back
1 exercise for biceps
1 exercise for triceps
1 exercise for forearms
2 exercises for the core

i was doing 3x/week, but was overtraining so i reduced to 2x/week

its what i enjoy doing at this point of my life




Did ya try the farmers walks H?

not yet, I have a bum shoulder, so letting that heal before I try them



Ah nightmare, wise move.
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Average Al

Regarding heavy versus light:

On most exercises, I like to pick a weight that gives me in the range of 5 to 10 reps. The only time I go higher, like 20 reps, is when doing calf raises or using certain types of leg presses. How I pick the weight depends very much on how the exercise feels, the cadence I use, and nature of the strength curve.

For one example: my gym has a Cybex leg with a weight stack. That machine has a relatively flat resistance curve, and the hardest point in the movement is getting the out of the crouched position. That is the point where I feel back stress, if I don?t keep everything really tight. On that machine, I prefer to use a lighter weight, do fairly fast reps with a quick turnaround. There, I shoot for 20 reps, and let cumulative fatigue take me to failure. I feel like this minimizes the chance I will round my lumbar and tweak something in my back. On the other hand, the gym also has a Cybex squat press with a leverage design that produces a pretty steep ascending resistance curve. Here, I do not feel much back stress in the crouched position, so I load it up, and do sets of 5 to 10, and typically hit failure further out in the movement.

On squats, I tend to prefer slightly heavier weight for sets of 5 versus less weight for a set of 10. Squats with more than 10 reps tend to become painful due to oxygen debt, and I worry about low back fatigue setting up conditions for an injury.

Another example: one of the machines I use is an Cybex chest press with a fused movement arm design. If I go with a heavier weight, it tends to be too difficult to move into a deep stretched position; I feel too much stress in the shoulder joint. So when the weight is on the heavier side, I will keep the reps in the 5 to 10 range, somewhat limit the range of motion, and focus on squeezing through the top 2/3rds of the movement. But then I will do a drop set, with a weight that is light enough for me to move comfortably into a deep stretch position. On this second set, I will tend to go for more reps (10 plus), with a longer range of motion, and let fatigue take its toll.

Certain exercises just feel wrong if the weight is either too high (form breaks down, loads a joint awkwardly) or too low (it takes too long to get to failure). That is very subjective, of course. But I do tend to adjust the weight largely by how it feels to my body.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
Frank Scott wrote:
hit4me
I like the idea of your one set to failure routine.
Do you do more than one exercise per body part? Do you train Mon Weds Fri or similar?
Thanks

i do wednesdays and sundays...all other days i briskly walk (treadmill or around town)
one set per exercise with a 4/2/4 cadence
about 13 exercises each workout
4 exercises for legs
2 exercises for chest, shoulders and back
1 exercise for biceps
1 exercise for triceps
1 exercise for forearms
2 exercises for the core

i was doing 3x/week, but was overtraining so i reduced to 2x/week

its what i enjoy doing at this point of my life




Did ya try the farmers walks H?

not yet, I have a bum shoulder, so letting that heal before I try them



Ah nightmare, wise move.


yeah, at 53, I tend to pay more attention to injuries, lol

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StuKE

hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip

This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".


makes sense

I will say this, a few days ago I tried 3 sets 10 of moderate weight, no failure with probably 2/2 cadence and I could feel my joints actually hurting more, i.e. elbows and and left knee and it was full body and did not break a sweat or did not get winded
so, sunday I went back to my one set to failure, "heavy" training with 4/2/4 cadence, full body and felt no pain in the joints whatsoever...I do not use more weight than my joints can handle and I do not strain, grind or grip tightly...I shoot for 8 to 12 reps

But how can you train to failure without a degree of straining? Do you define failure as the point his before you need ro strain?
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hit4me

Florida, USA

StuKE wrote:
hit4me wrote:
sirloin wrote:
hit4me wrote:
everyone has to remember, heavy weight is relative

what i can do to ten reps, does not mean someone else can do the same weight or vice versa for ten reps

as for blood pressure..........don't do any straining of the neck, face or grip

This is why i normally use inverted comma's on the word "heavy".


makes sense

I will say this, a few days ago I tried 3 sets 10 of moderate weight, no failure with probably 2/2 cadence and I could feel my joints actually hurting more, i.e. elbows and and left knee and it was full body and did not break a sweat or did not get winded
so, sunday I went back to my one set to failure, "heavy" training with 4/2/4 cadence, full body and felt no pain in the joints whatsoever...I do not use more weight than my joints can handle and I do not strain, grind or grip tightly...I shoot for 8 to 12 reps

But how van you train to failure without a degree of straining? Do you define failure as the point his before you need ro strain?


thats about it...right before i begin to really strain or grip tightly or twist/arc some of my body parts

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