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Dr. Darden: Passive Elasticity of Titin, Eccentrics
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
mTOR is within the cell, it's not a circulating 'hormone', raising mTOR in a muscle cell through mechanical work, will have nothing to do with mTOR in any other cell in the body. It's affected per cell, within 'that' cell. IGF1 etc, affects mTOR signaling 'in that cell'. Not bro science, real science! :)



Yep!

A complex biochemical pathway!
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ATP 4 Vitality

HeavyHitter32 wrote:

marcph,

You used to be a big advocate of explosive, low rep multiple sets. What made you re-think this?


?marcph?

I've never advocated for explosive low-rep sets.
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HeavyHitter32

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:

marcph,

You used to be a big advocate of explosive, low rep multiple sets. What made you re-think this?

?marcph?

I've never advocated for explosive low-rep sets.


I thought you were formally 'marcph' on the forum.
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Frank Scott

He was. Formerly
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HeavyHitter32

Why the name change, Marc?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

I remember Marc espousing low reps, but not the explosive part...
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ATP 4 Vitality

This thread is starting to read like a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle fictional investigative novel.

Anybody thought of the usefulness of the knowledge about Titin?

I spoke of eccentric EQI's on this thread previously. There was not a single reply. So much for the investigative skills of any Sherlock Holmes wannabees here! However, EQI's stand for eccentric quasi-isometrics. Dr. Mel Siff had the idea for EQI's, in that one holds the bottom position for a given period of time. As you fatigue, you increase flexibility and strengthen a critical area of the muscle....ie. the stretched position.

Test #1

30/30/30

Decline press.

1st 30 second negative held in bottom position for 10 seconds after 20 second eccentric ... then

30 second positive...horror upon horrors! ....then

30 second eccentric

My impressions:
EQI's added to 30/30/30 may be more intense than rest pause pure eccentric-only.

EQI's may be ideal for stretching the titin molecule.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/...40313123135.htm



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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Anybody thought of the usefulness of the knowledge about Titin?



According to the first paper that you posted, the structure of titin suggests a different mechanistic interpretation for the differences between eccentric and concentric strength. In other words, it is a novel mechanistic interpretation for what we already know: eccentric contractions can sustain more force than concentric contractions. New theories are certainly interesting to read about. But it is presented as a hypothesis requiring further testing. Only time will tell if the hypothesis holds up.

The second article by MacMillan seems to reiterate the well known idea that there are benefits to training eccentric contractions in an overloaded state. He doesn't invoke titin, or the new hypothesis, with regard to the claims he makes about the effectiveness of such training.

So what useful information about training do you think we ought to draw from an unverified hypothesis that might explain why eccentric contractions can be more forceful than concentric contractions? You don't need a new theory to figure out if overloaded eccentrics have a training benefit. Just do it, and see what happens.

As for the last paper, which you just posted: it seems to mostly focus on flexibility as influenced by muscle length, and not strength. Furthermore, the 'long lasting' nature of the improvement is on a time scale of hours...

"Exercising facilitates oxidation reactions, but it is stretching that primes the muscle for oxidation. Once oxidation reactions occur, they lock the muscle proteins in an unfolded state and cause sustained increases in their elasticity. The muscle goes back to normal when the muscle cells naturally remove the oxidation, a process that can take several hours."

So, again interesting. But it seems premature to start changing up training programs based on these kinds of findings.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

Anybody thought of the usefulness of the knowledge about Titin?



According to the first paper that you posted, the structure of titin suggests a different mechanistic interpretation for the differences between eccentric and concentric strength. In other words, it is a novel mechanistic interpretation for what we already know: eccentric contractions can sustain more force than concentric contractions. New theories are certainly interesting to read about. But it is presented as a hypothesis requiring further testing. Only time will tell if the hypothesis holds up.

The second article by MacMillan seems to reiterate the well known idea that there are benefits to training eccentric contractions in an overloaded state. He doesn't invoke titin, or the new hypothesis, with regard to the claims he makes about the effectiveness of such training.

So what useful information about training do you think we ought to draw from an unverified hypothesis that might explain why eccentric contractions can be more forceful than concentric contractions? You don't need a new theory to figure out if overloaded eccentrics have a training benefit. Just do it, and see what happens.

As for the last paper, which you just posted: it seems to mostly focus on flexibility as influenced by muscle length, and not strength. Furthermore, the 'long lasting' nature of the improvement is on a time scale of hours...

"Exercising facilitates oxidation reactions, but it is stretching that primes the muscle for oxidation. Once oxidation reactions occur, they lock the muscle proteins in an unfolded state and cause sustained increases in their elasticity. The muscle goes back to normal when the muscle cells naturally remove the oxidation, a process that can take several hours."

So, again interesting. But it seems premature to start changing up training programs based on these kinds of findings.


AA,

I do agree with you here. We do however get insight into the complex nature of muscle contractions. I do think there are some unique opportunities for eccentric training perhaps including heart patients. With attacks on eccentric training methodologies by certain elements within the HIT community, I'm reminded of Arthur Jones' words:

"So don't let any of today's crop of fools try to convince you that negative-only training will not increase your positive strength; you would, in fact, be well advised to avoid all of their half-baked ideas."

I know you are not trying to convince anyone of such foolishness, but while I was listening to a lecture by Dr. Darden about his current books, I was quite taken by the fact that Dr. Darden publishes pertinent data, before/after pictures and names of the participants of his studies. Others don't. Who are we to believe?

Also, titin may give some insight into the phenomenon of repeated bout effects of eccentric exercise. Subsequent eccentric workouts alleviate some of the problems related to DOMS. Does this mean titin's properties can be trained?

I will leave you with these words:

"l'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace,"


The exercise field needs this. Arthur is missed.
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