MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

Determine the Length of Your Workouts

Evaluate Your Progress

Keep Warm-Up in Perspective


ARCHIVES >>

"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

Mission Statement

H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy

Privacy Policy

Credits

LOG IN FORUM MAIN REGISTER SEARCH
Negative Only Workout Experiment
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next | Last
Author
Rating
Options

acas1959

Dr Darden
Myself and two friends are going do a negative only workout experiment for the next 3 months initially.
We are going to do a few basic exercises using as much weight as possible with good form but executing the negative portion only, the concentrc part of the rep will be fully assisted.

We will workout once per week and spot each other on different days.
We will take measurements and share the results.
What number of reps and set will you recommend? Any other recommendations?
Many thanks,

Regards
Open User Options Menu

tensionstrength

I'm interested in your results. This is something I would like to try as well. Very curious to see what happens with a weight that significantly loads the negative and with little interruption rep to rep.
Open User Options Menu

Ellington Darden

acas1959 wrote:
Dr Darden
Myself and two friends are going do a negative only workout experiment for the next 3 months initially.
We are going to do a few basic exercises using as much weight as possible with good form but executing the negative portion only, the concentrc part of the rep will be fully assisted.

We will workout once per week and spot each other on different days.
We will take measurements and share the results.
What number of reps and set will you recommend? Any other recommendations?
Many thanks,

Regards


Be careful of your lag times: the number of seconds between your negative repetitions. Very soon those time periods will become a serious problem.

As you get stronger, those times increase and that's not to your advantage.

That's why X-Force machines are so result producing. Done properly, the lag times now become intense positive movements.

Ellington

Open User Options Menu

acas1959

Ellington Darden wrote:
acas1959 wrote:
Dr Darden
Myself and two friends are going do a negative only workout experiment for the next 3 months initially.
We are going to do a few basic exercises using as much weight as possible with good form but executing the negative portion only, the concentrc part of the rep will be fully assisted.

We will workout once per week and spot each other on different days.
We will take measurements and share the results.
What number of reps and set will you recommend? Any other recommendations?
Many thanks,

Regards


Be careful of your lag times: the number of seconds between your negative repetitions. Very soon those time periods will become a serious problem.

As you get stronger, those times increase and that's not to your advantage.

That's why X-Force machines are so result producing. Done properly, the lag times now become intense positive movements.

Ellington



Thank you Dr Daden,any recommendations regarding number of sets and reps?

Regards,
Open User Options Menu

Ellington Darden

I would do no more than 8 exercises and for only one set.

Ellington
Open User Options Menu

Average Al

I predict lots of delayed onset muscle soreness....
Open User Options Menu

tensionstrength

It's almost like the muscles negative/eccentric ability is the bodies "last line of defense" contractile ability? The last ability to fatigue? You guys got me thinking of trying some ways to do negative only. I know there's of course negative only chins and dips, using legs to get to the top and lower with the upper body muscles. Various exercises, concentric both limbs, negative with one.

I know the topic of negatives induced microtrauma was talked about here recently in another thread. Some studies showing very similar results with concentric, static, and eccentric regarding strength and size gains?

Something I have thought quite a bit myself but have never delved into it exclusively. I recall an excerpt from Arthur's "My First Half Century in the Irongame", about he and some others training a football player using negative only. The player was initially unable to chin himself concentrically. After so much time of negative only training he was able to chin himself concentrically multiple times, if memory serves me correctly.
Open User Options Menu

hit4me

Florida, USA

what sucks about this type of training is you either need a partner or two that you can depend on and believes in this type of training
or you need to belong to a private gym of someone who also believes in negative accentuated training
or you need access to negative accentuated equipment

I have none of these
Open User Options Menu

Crotalus

hit4me wrote:
what sucks about this type of training is you either need a partner or two that you can depend on and believes in this type of training
or you need to belong to a private gym of someone who also believes in negative accentuated training
or you need access to negative accentuated equipment

I have none of these


Even if you have a couple partners that agree to be involved with your N/O workouts, they have to remain dependable, consistent and as committed as you for that length of time. I think that is one things that kills it before it gets started and why X-Force is the way to go .... but few of us have access to those incredible machines.

My opinion is 8 exercises each workout is too many for this type of program ... maybe OK at the start but will have to be reduced as it goes on to keep the intensity level high.

I just can't imagine lasting for 8 exercises in negative only ... depends on what movements you choose , how many reps is planned and how hard you hit it.
Open User Options Menu

HeavyHitter32

hit4me wrote:
what sucks about this type of training is you either need a partner or two that you can depend on and believes in this type of training
or you need to belong to a private gym of someone who also believes in negative accentuated training
or you need access to negative accentuated equipment

I have none of these


With dips, chins, leg presses, one legged squats (preferably in a machine type), arm curls, one at a time leg curls, it can be done by yourself. I just don't think it's the best way to train though...the positive needs to be there.
Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

Eccentric only training has a problem that is never discussed. The problem can NOT be overcome. After resistance levels exceed certain limits......no one knows for sure these limits....but certainly levels over 100 % of one's 1 repetition maximum, these inhibition activities occur.

Built-in proprioceptors such as Golgi tendon organs, and muscle spindles inhibit muscle recruitment as a means of self-preservation. There is nothing to dispute here.

Resistance to promote muscle growth should recognize the above fact and efforts should be made to recruit muscle asynchronously. Even very light resistance can accomplish this goal. This too is indisputable.

I see no evidence that energy system guidelines apply very much either, as these energy systems function seamlessly. Even retracing recruitment of slow twitch fibers would suffice as long as a sufficient quantity of fast twitch fibers are recruited concurrently.

https://www.unm.edu/...spindleGTO.html
Open User Options Menu

acas1959


Even if you have a couple partners that agree to be involved with your N/O workouts, they have to remain dependable, consistent and as committed as you for that length of time. I think that is one things that kills it before it gets started and why X-Force is the way to go .... but few of us have access to those incredible machines.

My opinion is 8 exercises each workout is too many for this type of program ... maybe OK at the start but will have to be reduced as it goes on to keep the intensity level high.

I just can't imagine lasting for 8 exercises in negative only ... depends on what movements you choose , how many reps is planned and how hard you hit it. [/quote]

Hmm ... Dr Darden sugests 8 exercises but Crotalus does not approve ... wonder what should I do? LMAO
Open User Options Menu

S.M.Punisher

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=xSr4kS53T-g

Just one of the many ways you can manipulate body weight to get intense negative-only. Hannibal makes these look easy, but most won't be able to do one positive.
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Eccentric only training has a problem that is never discussed. The problem can NOT be overcome. After resistance levels exceed certain limits......no one knows for sure these limits....but certainly levels over 100 % of one's 1 repetition maximum, these inhibition activities occur.

Built-in proprioceptors such as Golgi tendon organs, and muscle spindles inhibit muscle recruitment as a means of self-preservation. There is nothing to dispute here.

Resistance to promote muscle growth should recognize the above fact and efforts should be made to recruit muscle asynchronously. Even very light resistance can accomplish this goal. This too is indisputable.

I see no evidence that energy system guidelines apply very much either, as these energy systems function seamlessly. Even retracing recruitment of slow twitch fibers would suffice as long as a sufficient quantity of fast twitch fibers are recruited concurrently.

https://www.unm.edu/...spindleGTO.html


====Scott===
Can you please explain this in laymens terms. I have no idea what your point is.
Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
Can you please explain this in laymens terms. I have no idea what your point is.



do you really want to learn?
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Can you please explain this in laymens terms. I have no idea what your point is.


do you really want to learn?


==Scott==
I want to understand what your point is.
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Eccentric only training has a problem that is never discussed. The problem can NOT be overcome. After resistance levels exceed certain limits......no one knows for sure these limits....but certainly levels over 100 % of one's 1 repetition maximum, these inhibition activities occur.

Built-in proprioceptors such as Golgi tendon organs, and muscle spindles inhibit muscle recruitment as a means of self-preservation. There is nothing to dispute here.

Resistance to promote muscle growth should recognize the above fact and efforts should be made to recruit muscle asynchronously. Even very light resistance can accomplish this goal. This too is indisputable.

I see no evidence that energy system guidelines apply very much either, as these energy systems function seamlessly. Even retracing recruitment of slow twitch fibers would suffice as long as a sufficient quantity of fast twitch fibers are recruited concurrently.

https://www.unm.edu/...spindleGTO.html


==Scott==
So there are muscle sensors or inhibitors that restrict how much a muscle can strain so to speak.How does this in turn effect a workout using only eccentric movements?
Open User Options Menu

tensionstrength

entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Eccentric only training has a problem that is never discussed. The problem can NOT be overcome. After resistance levels exceed certain limits......no one knows for sure these limits....but certainly levels over 100 % of one's 1 repetition maximum, these inhibition activities occur.

Built-in proprioceptors such as Golgi tendon organs, and muscle spindles inhibit muscle recruitment as a means of self-preservation. There is nothing to dispute here.

Resistance to promote muscle growth should recognize the above fact and efforts should be made to recruit muscle asynchronously. Even very light resistance can accomplish this goal. This too is indisputable.

I see no evidence that energy system guidelines apply very much either, as these energy systems function seamlessly. Even retracing recruitment of slow twitch fibers would suffice as long as a sufficient quantity of fast twitch fibers are recruited concurrently.

https://www.unm.edu/...spindleGTO.html


==Scott==
So there are muscle sensors or inhibitors that restrict how much a muscle can strain so to speak.How does this in turn effect a workout using only eccentric movements?


Has anyone here ever had this happen?
Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I want to understand what your point is.


Since you ONLY want to understand what my point was....


Fewer motor units are recruited by eccentric contractions
Open User Options Menu

hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I want to understand what your point is.

Since you ONLY want to understand what my point was....


Fewer motor units are recruited by eccentric contractions


then why is dr darden a big advocate of this style of training????

Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I want to understand what your point is.

Since you ONLY want to understand what my point was....


Fewer motor units are recruited by eccentric contractions


==Scott==
I take it in the past it was thought that eccentric contractions would recruit more motor units?
Open User Options Menu

Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I want to understand what your point is.

Since you ONLY want to understand what my point was....


Fewer motor units are recruited by eccentric contractions


That seems to be what the literature on muscle physiology says: eccentrics recruit fewer motor units.

Yet, despite this limitation that cannot be overcome, the following also seem to be true:

- You can exert more force, or develop more muscle tension with a controlled eccentric (relative to a concentric contraction).

- Training with overloaded eccentric movement (load greater than what you can move concentrically) seems to enhance strength and hypertrophy gains.

So is it fair to characterize this aspect of eccentrics as an insolvable problem? It is the way the body works, for sure. But what does that have to do with the *demonstrated* value of training with overloaded eccentrics?

Isn't asynchronous fiber recruitment something that happens mostly with lower intensity, repetitive activity? And doesn't it mostly involve the turnover of slow twitch fiber (some recover while others pick up the load)? Is asynchronous recruitment of higher threshold FT fiber possible practically? If you were interested in building maximum strength by recruiting fast twitch fiber asynchronously, what does the exercise protocol look like?
Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I take it in the past it was thought that eccentric contractions would recruit more motor units?


You were around then.....why don't you tell us about the history of negatives and Nautilus. Arthur Jones' articles are STILL available.
Open User Options Menu

ATP 4 Vitality

hit4me wrote:
then why is dr darden a big advocate of this style of training????



Not true entirely.

Dr. Darden's 15/15/15 reps are followed by 8-12 repetitions of a 1 second concentric and a 2 second eccentric speed. Dr. Darden utilizes asynchronous recruitment with this technique.

The muscle fiber spindles sense speed of the movement. Thus, when Dr. McGuff is utilizing/promoting SuperSlow exercise, his muscle fiber spindles are doing their thing....sensing his deliberate slowing of contraction SPEED, he is unknowingly using potentially less muscle fibers. The only way SuperSlow can succeed is to implement a full asynchronous repetition technique. That is why SuperSlow zealots preach going-to-failure.

The real question HIT should have asked...how fast can a repetition be safely done? If a 1 second concentric is OK...and one is stronger in the eccentric phase...then why not a 1 second eccentric?

Success/spindles leaves clues! There are no long term studies of slow reps/eccentric reps being better than other training modalities. However, there are legions of folks using plain old vanilla reps for several years to their advantage. History leaves clues!

All champions in weight lifting use concentric repetitions. They also use eccentric judiciously. Nothing feels as good as high reps done with rhythm...BioForce once paraphrased this....interestingly...CrossFit performs very high reps as fast as they can go....while HIT listens to some parrot write articles that these same folks are going to be feeble in old age due to poor exercise techniques...only one thing .....CrossFit folks appear in very good condition....Things that make you go Hmmmmm!
Open User Options Menu

entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I take it in the past it was thought that eccentric contractions would recruit more motor units?

You were around then.....why don't you tell us about the history of negatives and Nautilus. Arthur Jones' articles are STILL available.


==Scott==
Why don't I tell about the history of Nautilus and negatives ,because I'm not pushing negatives.I just wanted to understand where you were coming from and it's relation to just doing negatives or eccentrics. Personally I don't feel heavy negatives only do much for building large muscles. I do feel they are useful for strength gains though.
As for Jones articles I probably have most of them and read them a dozen times but that stuff has been gone over on here a million times.It's right up there with one set vrs three sets.
Open User Options Menu
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next | Last
H.I.T. Acceptable Use Policy