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Question for Dr. Darden. Eccentrics and Blood Pressure
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ATP 4 Vitality

There is an unknown benefit of eccentric exercise. Note this study!

Conclusion:

Short term Eccentric Resisted Exercise produces comparatively more reduction in resting blood pressure and
heart rate than concentric type of resisted exercise in mild to moderate hypertensive subjects.


"Effect of concentric and eccentric resisted exercise on blood pressure and heart rate in mild to moderate hypertensive individuals"

Khare, Divya & Shah, Manali & Sathe, Abhinav. (2016).

Can you comment on blood pressure reduction with eccentric exercise?

Does X-Force have any information on this effect?

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Ellington Darden

I'm not familiar with this study nor the conclusions.

Ellington
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ptcrusader

52 weeks of weight lifting (in general) reduces hypertension in a 2017 follow up study. https://www.researchgate.net/...ive_elderly_men
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ATP 4 Vitality

Ellington Darden wrote:
I'm not familiar with this study nor the conclusions.

Ellington


Thank you!
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ATP 4 Vitality

ptcrusader wrote:
52 weeks of weight lifting (in general) reduces hypertension in a 2017 follow up study. https://www.researchgate.net/...rly_men


Thank you!

Resistance training is a powerful tool to improve health.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

i visited my cardiologist last week and he was very pleased with my blood pressure readings and the sound of my heart beat. i told him i perform full body weight training twice a week and just started a running program a few weeks ago.........he liked hearing that and told me the more movement you do the better
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Resultsbased

"Thank you1

Resistance training is a powerful tool to improve health."[/quote]

_______________
ATP,

It is encouraging to see you have such a "change of heart" as you prior posts have denigrated resistance training and you have stated that it is harmful to the heart.

Congratulations

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Average Al

So I looked up the title and found the abstract. I'm not all that impressed by the study: 30 hypertensive individuals were tested. 15 of them did eccentric only bicep curls (once a day?) for 6 days. 15 did concentric bicep curls for 6 days. At the end, those who did eccentric bicep curls saw more improvement in blood pressure and heart rate.

Given the short duration of the study, and the extremely limited nature of the exercise program (bicep curls!), what broad conclusions can be drawn from this?

It seems like one of those studies that was probably done so that a student could get a BS or MS thesis written.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Losing 5.0 pounds of body fat, or 5 points off blood pressure readings is likely far more important for most people than gaining 0.5 inch of bicep girth or 0.5 pounds of muscle mass.

Due to the usual retorts on this internet site and many similar sites, I try to steer away from any discussions lately, as discussion seems unproductive and leave few learning experiences.

So this is an exception. Common knowledge shows that eccentric exercise taxes the circulatory system less than concentric exercise. The energy required is less. The oxygen requirement is less. I have trained severe COPD patients with eccentric exercise with tremendous results. Blood pressure can be lowered with isometric grip exercise....Zona Plus. The Valsalva maneuver in conjunction with concentric exercise is likely detrimental to arterial compliance. Prolonging such contractions likely delivers worse compliance. The calf muscles are the 2nd heart and help the heart. Likely all peripheral body parts, hands...feet, and head can be trained to help blood pressure be lowered. BUT.....no one has clear evidence...YET!


I was hoping Dr. Darden could give some insight.....into eccentric exercise and blood pressure control.....the reason for my post. I'm sure most don't care....so back to routines for that 1/2 pound of muscle every year.


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Crotalus

Average Al wrote:
It seems like one of those studies that was probably done so that a student could get a BS or MS thesis written.


It's the only reason these studies are done.
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Losing 5.0 pounds of body fat, or 5 points off blood pressure readings is likely far more important for most people than gaining 0.5 inch of bicep girth or 0.5 pounds of muscle mass.

Due to the usual retorts on this internet site and many similar sites, I try to steer away from any discussions lately, as discussion seems unproductive and leave few learning experiences.

So this is an exception. Common knowledge shows that eccentric exercise taxes the circulatory system less than concentric exercise. The energy required is less. The oxygen requirement is less. I have trained severe COPD patients with eccentric exercise with tremendous results. Blood pressure can be lowered with isometric grip exercise....Zona Plus. The Valsalva maneuver in conjunction with concentric exercise is likely detrimental to arterial compliance. Prolonging such contractions likely delivers worse compliance. The calf muscles are the 2nd heart and help the heart. Likely all peripheral body parts, hands...feet, and head can be trained to help blood pressure be lowered. BUT.....no one has clear evidence...YET!


I was hoping Dr. Darden could give some insight.....into eccentric exercise and blood pressure control.....the reason for my post. I'm sure most don't care....so back to routines for that 1/2 pound of muscle every year.




Nothing wrong with your question, or the topic of eccentrics and cardiovascular effects. I'm just observing that the particular study you referenced is so limited that it Is hard to see any practical implications *from that one study*.
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ATP 4 Vitality

@ Al

I agree with your assessment of the study in question.

I do not agree with unfair criticism of college students when the real problem is much deeper as regards academics/studies/ethics/professors/and colleges. Arthur warned us of the problem years ago. Greed and the propaganda media machinations are alive and well all over the world.

That said.....I would think anyone writing books on eccentric resistance exercise to be extremely well versed in all aspects. Is Arthur Jones the last person equipped with such knowledge? X-Force has little breaking information on eccentrics. In my opinion they are not leading by example. That leaves only grass root means for any eccentric revelations to be ascertained.


The Rogers Athletic Pendulum gripper allows eccentric reps. I personally use an Ivanko Supergripper, which I close with 2 hands and then subsequently do eccentric reps with 1 hand. This will get the hands super strong and quickly overtrain the hands and forearms. The hands are generally weak points...which is a good reason to work them as strong hands allow strong lats and pecs to reach their full potential.

Some feel the forearm strength and hand strength is a reliable demonstration test for upper and lower body strength gains with excellent reliability. I'm not so sure. Furthermore, one may be able to ascertain whether one has recovered to a large degree with simple hand dynamometry. Once again, I would simply do a n=1!

I recently overheard Hank Aaron state that his hand and forearm strength were key to his homerun prowess. He weighed less than 190 pounds in his prime.

Food for thought!






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Average Al

I wasn't intending to criticize students. They learn how to do research by doing research, and those studies have to accommodate the limited tools and time that are available to students. It is just unrealistic to expect that studies done under those circumstances will provide profound insights.

Single studies, even those done by full professors in the pursuit of knowledge with decent size funding grants, rarely have a profound impact. Rather, it is more often the accumulated results of many studies which eventually sheds light on complex topics.

As far as X-Force AB is concerned: it seems to be a privately held company, so it would probably be hard to determine how many machines they have sold, or how profitable they are.

I've heard that the machines are relatively expensive when compared to the competition, and that they have a reputation of requiring a lot of maintenance. Because of that, I expect their sales volume and income is probably pretty modest. I doubt they have the resources to fund any medical research of the kind that you would like to see.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
I wasn't intending to criticize students. They learn how to do research by doing research, and those studies have to accommodate the limited tools and time that are available to students. It is just unrealistic to expect that studies done under those circumstances will provide profound insights.

Single studies, even those done by full professors in the pursuit of knowledge with decent size funding grants, rarely have a profound impact. Rather, it is more often the accumulated results of many studies which eventually sheds light on complex topics.

As far as X-Force AB is concerned: it seems to be a privately held company, so it would probably be hard to determine how many machines they have sold, or how profitable they are.

I've heard that the machines are relatively expensive when compared to the competition, and that they have a reputation of requiring a lot of maintenance. Because of that, I expect their sales volume and income is probably pretty modest. I doubt they have the resources to fund any medical research of the kind that you would like to see.


The status quo bites again.....or is it just the reality?
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ATP 4 Vitality

This study showed that there is a strong correlation between grip strength and total muscle strength. Therefore, grip strength could be used as a general indicator for overall muscle strength.

"Is grip strength a predictor for total muscle strength in healthy children, adolescents, and young adults?"

Anne E. Wind & Tim Takken & Paul J. M. Helders & Raoul H. H. Engelbert
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

The hands are generally weak points...which is a good reason to work them as strong hands allow strong lats and pecs to reach their full potential.

==Scott==
At my peak of muscle building I was walking around one day at the beach and someone commented I looked pretty good but had no lats. He was right, my lats were nonexistent.It was also true that my hands would give out early on doing chins and the like. I bought machines like the pullover and rowing torso and behind the neck rowing torso that eliminated grip problems hoping then my lats would finally pop out. It made no difference.
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ATP 4 Vitality

The muscles contract when innervated. The human body is designed with a cornucopia of nervous sensory input in the hands and fingers.

Scott,

I believe you get my point.
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sgb2112

https://www.T-Nation.com/...rics-with-pavel
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
The muscles contract when innervated. The human body is designed with a cornucopia of nervous sensory input in the hands and fingers.

Scott,

I believe you get my point.


==Scott==
Oh I get your point about weak grip. On another note I get a kick out of how many times lately when I shake hands with someone they try and grip my hand in a vice like painful grip.My first thought is what the hell are you trying to prove?It's very annoying.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

sgb2112 wrote:
https://www.T-Nation.com/...h-pavel


==Scott==
Sorry guys but the the guy in the red shirt just screamed Meat Head.The sight of him is enough to get one to quit working out, ha ha.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
The muscles contract when innervated. The human body is designed with a cornucopia of nervous sensory input in the hands and fingers.

Scott,

I believe you get my point.

==Scott==
Oh I get your point about weak grip. On another note I get a kick out of how many times lately when I shake hands with someone they try and grip my hand in a vice like painful grip.My first thought is what the hell are you trying to prove?It's very annoying.


A few months of eccentric reps on an Ivanko Super Gripper will fix any weak grip.
I can only imagine what a Pendulum gripper with the eccentric pedal would do for the grip.
The Pendulum neck machine seems awesome also.

Just a few short years I broke my right hand in several places. I needed 3 steel pins along with surgery with 4 months recovery. After pins were removed I had little strength in that hand. Any grip with movement hurt badly. I started slowly with daily isometrics and finally eccentrics with the Ivanko. The physical therapist was astounded with my recovery. She had no piece of equipment that was not child play for my injured hand. My right hand is now stronger than ever with no bone pain in that hand.

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Equity

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
This study showed that there is a strong correlation between grip strength and total muscle strength. Therefore, grip strength could be used as a general indicator for overall muscle strength.

"Is grip strength a predictor for total muscle strength in healthy children, adolescents, and young adults?"

Anne E. Wind & Tim Takken & Paul J. M. Helders & Raoul H. H. Engelbert


Personally my opinion of grippers is poor. The CoC grippers are uncomfortable to use and I had an Ivanko adjustable gripper.

My hands feel their strongest after wrist curling and leverage work with iron bars (clubbells if you've got access to them) or you could use mini sledgehammers or the full size version if your surname is Kazmaier.

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sirloin

Equity wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
This study showed that there is a strong correlation between grip strength and total muscle strength. Therefore, grip strength could be used as a general indicator for overall muscle strength.

"Is grip strength a predictor for total muscle strength in healthy children, adolescents, and young adults?"

Anne E. Wind & Tim Takken & Paul J. M. Helders & Raoul H. H. Engelbert


Personally my opinion of grippers is poor. The CoC grippers are uncomfortable to use and I had an Ivanko adjustable gripper.

My hands feel their strongest after wrist curling and leverage work with iron bars (clubbells if you've got access to them) or you could use mini sledgehammers or the full size version if your surname is Kazmaier.



Sorry, double post
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sirloin

Equity wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
This study showed that there is a strong correlation between grip strength and total muscle strength. Therefore, grip strength could be used as a general indicator for overall muscle strength.

"Is grip strength a predictor for total muscle strength in healthy children, adolescents, and young adults?"

Anne E. Wind & Tim Takken & Paul J. M. Helders & Raoul H. H. Engelbert


Personally my opinion of grippers is poor. The CoC grippers are uncomfortable to use and I had an Ivanko adjustable gripper.

My hands feel their strongest after wrist curling and leverage work with iron bars (clubbells if you've got access to them) or you could use mini sledgehammers or the full size version if your surname is Kazmaier.



Have to agree, grippers did jack shit to improve my grip, also not keen on these "fat gripz". Farmers walks with a couple of hundred pounds per hand really improved my grip, so much so, i no longer require straps for my Deadlifts (albiet my bars have aggressive knurling and i use chalk). Still, pulling 500lb for triples is no longer a grip issue.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I've heard boxers and others like mountain climbers who depend of hand strength keep a large ball of wax in their hand and squeeze it often to build grip strength.
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