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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
Watch the video please. He is doing a couple of exercises every few days during the hectic part of his ER schedule (he is an actual emergency room DR) and then taking 1-3 days off (longer with legs). This is more or less an experiment. Will he train this way forever? Probably not. Its like you are trying to find one i he did not dot or one t he did not cross to try and say the whole thing is invalid. We all try new things from time to time and absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Mike Mentzer was a lot more dogmatic in his approach...agreed. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down.


I did watch the video BEFORE commenting. What I did NOT do, is drink his Kool Aid and kiss the seat of his trousers, which is how you come across every time the good Dr comes up! No straw man argument is needed here, just pure fantasy physiology on his part.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
I don't think the criticism is warranted.


Who cares what you THINK! You were NOT banned on a whim by the good Dr




Give him credit for being open to new ideas


Open to new ideas, as long as they emanate from him. He bans those with ideas divergent from his!
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HeavyHitter32

DoricColumns wrote:


High frequency training on a six-way bodypart split, rest pause, breakdowns, and "pumping" sets.

Perhaps the "science" has changed since he wrote and promoted his book.

LOL


Yeah, I seem to recall a lot of people saying this for years but were told they were just blind followers, non-critical thinkers, idiots, illogical, etc. "One set always and forever" we were told.
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Average Al

DoricColumns wrote:

High frequency training on a six-way bodypart split, rest pause, breakdowns, and "pumping" sets.

Perhaps the "science" has changed since he wrote and promoted his book.

LOL


In the world of conventional S&C, high frequency training means training the same body part multiple times a week. By that standard, his 6-way split does not qualify as high frequency.

The original book mentions rest-pause, as well as partial reps, assisted reps, timed static holds, and negative only reps.

Breakdown sets aren't mentioned in the original book, but they are a way to get to deeper inroad, which is the basis of BBS and Super Slow training. (I have a book by Wayne Wescott called High-Intensity Strength Training, published in 2003, 6 years before BBS book. That book had a chapter on breakdown sets, indicating that that idea has been around in the HIT community for quite awhile.)

I will grant that pumping sets were not included in the original book. However, I recall that when Brian Johnson came up with the J-Rep concept, and then the idea of High Density sets, which was a few years ago, McGuff seemed intrigued and/or supportive. I remember that he used J-Reps in his own workouts, at least when using less than ideal equipment. So I think he has a history of being open to different ideas - unless they involve cardio :-) .
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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Watch the video please. He is doing a couple of exercises every few days during the hectic part of his ER schedule (he is an actual emergency room DR) and then taking 1-3 days off (longer with legs). This is more or less an experiment. Will he train this way forever? Probably not. Its like you are trying to find one i he did not dot or one t he did not cross to try and say the whole thing is invalid. We all try new things from time to time and absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Mike Mentzer was a lot more dogmatic in his approach...agreed. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down.

I did watch the video BEFORE commenting. What I did NOT do, is drink his Kool Aid and kiss the seat of his trousers, which is how you comes across every time the good Dr come up! No straw man argument is needed here, just pure fantasy physiology on his part.


What you do though is scour the internet and when any mention of Doug McGuff or John Little comes up you immediately go on the attack. You seem to harbor a lot of resentment because you went on someone else's message board and made a total ass of yourself and got banned. Disagreeing is ok and folks don't seem to have too much issue with that. Its your tone and delivery that's the problem. You seem to lack basic social skills. Guess what? I don't agree with everything John Little or Doug McGuff says either. There's quite a bit I disagree with and there are some things I find of value. What I didn't do is go on their message boards or facebook forums and tell them their Momma wears combat boots. You are very lucky this message board is not heavily moderated or you would most likely be banned from another one. There's a way to get your point across without being a dick...and its ok if not everyone agrees with you. Do your thing and post your results. The proof lies in the pudding.
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DoricColumns

Average Al wrote:
DoricColumns wrote:

High frequency training on a six-way bodypart split, rest pause, breakdowns, and "pumping" sets.

Perhaps the "science" has changed since he wrote and promoted his book.

LOL

In the world of conventional S&C, high frequency training means training the same body part multiple times a week. By that standard, his 6-way split does not qualify as high frequency.

The original book mentions rest-pause, as well as partial reps, assisted reps, timed static holds, and negative only reps.

Breakdown sets aren't mentioned in the original book, but they are a way to get to deeper inroad, which is the basis of BBS and Super Slow training. (I have a book by Wayne Wescott called High-Intensity Strength Training, published in 2003, 6 years before BBS book. That book had a chapter on breakdown sets, indicating that that idea has been around in the HIT community for quite awhile.)

I will grant that pumping sets were not included in the original book. However, I recall that when Brian Johnson came up with the J-Rep concept, and then the idea of High Density sets, which was a few years ago, McGuff seemed intrigued and/or supportive. I remember that he used J-Reps in his own workouts, at least when using less than ideal equipment. So I think he has a history of being open to different ideas - unless they involve cardio :-) .


At issue is the fact that McGuff marketed and sold an approach to training (a "big 5" done in SuperSlow fashion once per week) that is wildly divergent from his own training -- which is conducted every other day with the use of multiple sets, myo reps, breakdowns, and/or "pumping" sets. In other words, the "prescription" that he sold to others is very different than the "medicine" that he uses for himself.

There are a variety of terms that can be used to describe this sort of practice.
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sirloin

6 way split lol, why stop there, why not 10 or 20 way split. Big toe extension and flexion one day, eyelid lifts the next etc.
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Chris H

All

i frequented BBS when Marc posted there.

What he posted was good stuff.

McGuff and a few cohorts did not like this, as it challenged there business model, and that was abundantly clear, at least to me.

Whilst i never got banned, when i posted that i had zero results using super slow, and boy did i try, it was not received well.
I could virtually feel McGuff and co seething through there key .
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Watch the video please. He is doing a couple of exercises every few days during the hectic part of his ER schedule (he is an actual emergency room DR) and then taking 1-3 days off (longer with legs). This is more or less an experiment. Will he train this way forever? Probably not. Its like you are trying to find one i he did not dot or one t he did not cross to try and say the whole thing is invalid. We all try new things from time to time and absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Mike Mentzer was a lot more dogmatic in his approach...agreed. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down.

I did watch the video BEFORE commenting. What I did NOT do, is drink his Kool Aid and kiss the seat of his trousers, which is how you comes across every time the good Dr come up! No straw man argument is needed here, just pure fantasy physiology on his part.

What you do though is scour the internet and when any mention of Doug McGuff or John Little comes up you immediately go on the attack. You seem to harbor a lot of resentment because you went on someone else's message board and made a total ass of yourself and got banned. Disagreeing is ok and folks don't seem to have too much issue with that. Its your tone and delivery that's the problem. You seem to lack basic social skills. Guess what? I don't agree with everything John Little or Doug McGuff says either. There's quite a bit I disagree with and there are some things I find of value. What I didn't do is go on their message boards or facebook forums and tell them their Momma wears combat boots. You are very lucky this message board is not heavily moderated or you would most likely be banned from another one. There's a way to get your point across without being a dick...and its ok if not everyone agrees with you. Do your thing and post your results. The proof lies in the pudding.


Nice to see your sterling example of social skills displayed here. At least I know where you stand. Game on! BTW, I do not use Facebook, and I have commented on less than 5 boards EVER! Get your facts straight before you cast stones hypocrite.
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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Watch the video please. He is doing a couple of exercises every few days during the hectic part of his ER schedule (he is an actual emergency room DR) and then taking 1-3 days off (longer with legs). This is more or less an experiment. Will he train this way forever? Probably not. Its like you are trying to find one i he did not dot or one t he did not cross to try and say the whole thing is invalid. We all try new things from time to time and absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Mike Mentzer was a lot more dogmatic in his approach...agreed. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down.

I did watch the video BEFORE commenting. What I did NOT do, is drink his Kool Aid and kiss the seat of his trousers, which is how you comes across every time the good Dr come up! No straw man argument is needed here, just pure fantasy physiology on his part.

What you do though is scour the internet and when any mention of Doug McGuff or John Little comes up you immediately go on the attack. You seem to harbor a lot of resentment because you went on someone else's message board and made a total ass of yourself and got banned. Disagreeing is ok and folks don't seem to have too much issue with that. Its your tone and delivery that's the problem. You seem to lack basic social skills. Guess what? I don't agree with everything John Little or Doug McGuff says either. There's quite a bit I disagree with and there are some things I find of value. What I didn't do is go on their message boards or facebook forums and tell them their Momma wears combat boots. You are very lucky this message board is not heavily moderated or you would most likely be banned from another one. There's a way to get your point across without being a dick...and its ok if not everyone agrees with you. Do your thing and post your results. The proof lies in the pudding.


Nice to see your sterling example of social skills displayed here. At least I know where you stand. Game on! BTW, I do not use Facebook, and I have commented on less than 5 boards EVER! Get your facts straight before you cast stones hypocrite.


Lol...I am shaking in my boots. Oh my, how will I ever sleep tonight with so much worry. Some anonymous internet guy is mad at me lol. Do your worst big neck.
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Watch the video please. He is doing a couple of exercises every few days during the hectic part of his ER schedule (he is an actual emergency room DR) and then taking 1-3 days off (longer with legs). This is more or less an experiment. Will he train this way forever? Probably not. Its like you are trying to find one i he did not dot or one t he did not cross to try and say the whole thing is invalid. We all try new things from time to time and absorb what is useful and discard what is not. Mike Mentzer was a lot more dogmatic in his approach...agreed. Setting up strawmen and knocking them down.

I did watch the video BEFORE commenting. What I did NOT do, is drink his Kool Aid and kiss the seat of his trousers, which is how you comes across every time the good Dr come up! No straw man argument is needed here, just pure fantasy physiology on his part.

What you do though is scour the internet and when any mention of Doug McGuff or John Little comes up you immediately go on the attack. You seem to harbor a lot of resentment because you went on someone else's message board and made a total ass of yourself and got banned. Disagreeing is ok and folks don't seem to have too much issue with that. Its your tone and delivery that's the problem. You seem to lack basic social skills. Guess what? I don't agree with everything John Little or Doug McGuff says either. There's quite a bit I disagree with and there are some things I find of value. What I didn't do is go on their message boards or facebook forums and tell them their Momma wears combat boots. You are very lucky this message board is not heavily moderated or you would most likely be banned from another one. There's a way to get your point across without being a dick...and its ok if not everyone agrees with you. Do your thing and post your results. The proof lies in the pudding.


Nice to see your sterling example of social skills displayed here. At least I know where you stand. Game on! BTW, I do not use Facebook, and I have commented on less than 5 boards EVER! Get your facts straight before you cast stones hypocrite.

Lol...I am shaking in my boots. Oh my, how will I ever sleep tonight with so much worry. Some anonymous internet guy is mad at me lol. Do your worst big neck.


We have the custodian posting here, and now we have the official - Hypocrite -
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epdavis7

Chris H wrote:
All

i frequented BBS when Marc posted there.

What he posted was good stuff.



Generally speaking, yes. I frequented the board back then too (although I never posted). Sometimes though he would do as he does here. You don't need to dig too deep on this board to see what I mean. We all get a little goofy in our posts from time to time, but his are rather unique in their style (not necessarily content whether I agree or disagree with his opinion or not). He uses a lot of cliches and hyperbole and frequent insults to those who disagree with him (I realize I insulted him in my post which is not usually my way of doing things, but some people...jeez). The BBS board has been long gone due to hackers.

I am one of the people SuperSlow worked for for my purposes at a point in time. General strength and as a supplement to the things I really enjoy. I do not recommend it for powerlifters, stongmen competitors and the like because of SAID. Currently I am not doing SuperSlow, but using a 4/2/4 or 4/4 rep cadence for about 40-80 secs TUL ie 5-8 or 6-10 reps dependent on exercise and contraction point. There is nothing magical about this cadence, but it allows me to use controlled form to achieve what I want to do. I'm big and strong enough to do the things I like to do and have to do and I use it primarily for metabolic conditioning in a safe and controlled manner (ie not crossfit)and to maintain and even build a little strength along the way. I have trained differently and lifted some substantial weights in the past using traditional strength training programs.

BBS as mentioned was written at a fixed static point in time. There is no conspiracy theory going on. Neither McGuff or Little are getting rich off this. Even Dr Darden has changed programs and introduced new things along the way (as did Arthur Jones previously).

I don't know if he's a troll, serious or mentally unhinged. Its not my concern either way. I've even agreed with him at times, but damn he is just so weird (there I go again being insulting lol).

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epdavis7

Welcome Marc!
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1958

Texas, USA

We still wait for proof of marcph/ Marc Pharmacist?s 22? neck! We?ll never see it!
What a loser he is!
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
I don't think the criticism is warranted.


Who cares what you THINK! You were NOT banned on a whim by the good Dr




Give him credit for being open to new ideas


Open to new ideas, as long as they emanate from him. He bans those with ideas divergent from his!


I have no idea if anyone cares about what I think. It isn't something I worry about much. Instead, when I state an opinion, I usually try to back it up with my reasoning, supporting facts, etc. Then I let my argument speak for itself. People can judge for themselves if my opinion has merit, based on the arguments I've stated.

In this case, the accusation was that the way McGuff trains is widely divergent from what he promotes in the book. I think that is a straw man proposition, one that does not stand up to careful inspection, for the reasons I've already stated.

What you have just revealed is what most people on here already knew: You have been nursing a personal grudge against McGuff for a long time, because he banned you from his web site. That is why you attack him at every opportunity.

Unfortunately (for you), this tells me that you must secretly crave his approval, or think highly of his opinion. Why else you be so butt-hurt by his rejection of you after all these years?
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
I don't think the criticism is warranted.


Who cares what you THINK! You were NOT banned on a whim by the good Dr




Give him credit for being open to new ideas


Open to new ideas, as long as they emanate from him. He bans those with ideas divergent from his!

I have no idea if anyone cares about what I think. It isn't something I worry about much. Instead, when I state an opinion, I usually try to back it up with my reasoning, supporting facts, etc. Then I let my argument speak for itself. People can judge for themselves if my opinion has merit, based on the arguments I've stated.

In this case, the accusation was that the way McGuff trains is widely divergent from what he promotes in the book. I think that is a straw man proposition, one that does not stand up to careful inspection, for the reasons I've already stated.

What you have just revealed is what most people on here already knew: You have been nursing a personal grudge against McGuff for a long time, because he banned you from his web site. That is why you attack him at every opportunity.

Unfortunately (for you), this tells me that you must secretly crave his approval, or think highly of his opinion. Why else you be so butt-hurt by his rejection of you after all these years?


Who cares what you think or what your undereducated psychoanalysis is!

Go kiss someone else trouser seat! McGuff trouser seat is wore out with your consistent kiss up!
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
Welcome Marc!


Yes - - I am the Contrarian!
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ATP 4 Vitality

1958 wrote:
We still wait for proof of marcph/ Marc Pharmacist?s 22? neck! We?ll never see it!
What a loser he is!


Who is we? Do you speak for all? Is so elected for such, why ask moronic questions?

I am wary of being so in demand of picture proof. Fred found out the hard way!
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Average Al

DoricColumns wrote:

At issue is the fact that McGuff marketed and sold an approach to training (a "big 5" done in SuperSlow fashion once per week) that is wildly divergent from his own training -- which is conducted every other day with the use of multiple sets, myo reps, breakdowns, and/or "pumping" sets. In other words, the "prescription" that he sold to others is very different than the "medicine" that he uses for himself.

There are a variety of terms that can be used to describe this sort of practice.


Hmmm. . . You sound like another person with a personal axe to grind?

But I will give it one last try to give you a different perspective:

My understanding is that he goes to simple failure, and then extends the set by doing some of these other things. So is a set to failure with additional drop sets, or myo-reps, or rest-pause, or J-reps really a multiple set routine, or are all these things just ways of performing a single extended set for further intensity or deeper inroad? I've seen people argue endlessly about whether or not set extenders are equivalent to doing multiple sets. It is an argument I'm not interested in having. The fact is that he described very brief set extenders in the original book (for deeper inroad, and to deal with sticking points), and he is now doing higher volume set extenders, for a new reason.

I've already pointed out that if you read the whole book, you will see that the Big 5 is called a starting point. He then goes on to talk about a 3-way split in which you no longer do whole body routines, but focus on different muscle groups in each workout, with even greater periods of recovery between the repeated workouts. Is it really that hard for you to understand that his 6-way split is just a further extension of the ideas behind the 3-way split presented in the book?

It is a big concession for him to suggest that a weakness of superslow might be that the contraction volume is too low. But he also says that isn't a science based opinion, and it clearly is based on limited duration personal experience after having to deal with a unique and unfamiliar work schedule. Perhaps that means it would be premature for him to start promoting a program based on these ideas for everyone. And the fact that he is experimenting with something different doesn't mean that the original program would suddenly stop working for all the people who have used it, and been happy with it, for years. This kind of tweaking is for the enthusiasts in the community, who are going to endlessly tweak anyway. They aren't for the average guy who just wants a simple, time efficient program to stay healthy.

As for the last charge: If he was interested in committing fraud, selling one program, while doing something else, why in the hell would he make a YouTube video, and reveal his secret to the world? That makes no sense at all.





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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
I don't think the criticism is warranted.


Who cares what you THINK! You were NOT banned on a whim by the good Dr




Give him credit for being open to new ideas


Open to new ideas, as long as they emanate from him. He bans those with ideas divergent from his!

I have no idea if anyone cares about what I think. It isn't something I worry about much. Instead, when I state an opinion, I usually try to back it up with my reasoning, supporting facts, etc. Then I let my argument speak for itself. People can judge for themselves if my opinion has merit, based on the arguments I've stated.

In this case, the accusation was that the way McGuff trains is widely divergent from what he promotes in the book. I think that is a straw man proposition, one that does not stand up to careful inspection, for the reasons I've already stated.

What you have just revealed is what most people on here already knew: You have been nursing a personal grudge against McGuff for a long time, because he banned you from his web site. That is why you attack him at every opportunity.

Unfortunately (for you), this tells me that you must secretly crave his approval, or think highly of his opinion. Why else you be so butt-hurt by his rejection of you after all these years?


Who cares what you think or what your undereducated psychoanalysis is!

Go kiss someone else trouser seat! McGuff trouser seat is wore out with your consistent kiss up!


You must care about what I think. Why else would you feel the need to respond?


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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Welcome Marc!

Yes - - I am the Contrarian!


Are you also DoricColumns under another alias? Not saying this is so, but seems mighty suspicious. Create another user account to support your position and agree with yourself. I have seen this happen (not necessarily by you)on other message boards. If not, my apologies. I have neither the time or interest to start tracking IP addresses and doing content analysis on posts. In the bigger scheme of things its just not that important.
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Welcome Marc!

Yes - - I am the Contrarian!

Are you also DoricColumns under another alias? Not saying this is so, but seems mighty suspicious. Create another user account to support your position and agree with yourself. I have seen this happen (not necessarily by you)on other message boards. If not, my apologies. I have neither the time or interest to start tracking IP addresses and doing content analysis on posts. In the bigger scheme of things its just not that important.


I post under NO other names! Nice try! I do wear 22 inch neck size in shirts! Only I am the contrarian! I do not post under your name either. Why do you always gravitate towards hypocrisy?
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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
Welcome Marc!

Yes - - I am the Contrarian!

Are you also DoricColumns under another alias? Not saying this is so, but seems mighty suspicious. Create another user account to support your position and agree with yourself. I have seen this happen (not necessarily by you)on other message boards. If not, my apologies. I have neither the time or interest to start tracking IP addresses and doing content analysis on posts. In the bigger scheme of things its just not that important.

I post under NO other names! Nice try! I do wear 22 inch neck size in shirts! Only I am the contrarian! I do not post under your name either. Why do you always gravitate towards hypocrisy?


Stick to Yoga! Perhaps YOU will get flexible enough to kiss the seat of YOUR own trousers! YOU will truly become YOUR own self-licking ice cream cone!

Why am I posting like this lol? I guess mimicry is indeed the sincerest form of flattery. Marc, consider yourself flattered.

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ptcrusader

Average Al: I enjoyed your possible explanation of the McGuff video and his possibly adapting his approach. Perhaps the post of the year.

I also think Mark is a very smart, well read pharmacist whose posts add value to this forum. They are very thought provoking as long as his posts, and the responses to his post are kept on a civil level.

I truly advocate for civility as this forum has become the intellectual go to site for knowledge concerning exercise. While that may never have been the intent of Dr. Darden, it certainly has happened. Consequently, why not keep it civil and discuss topics like the knowledgeable folks that we are?
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Donnie Hunt

ptcrusader wrote:
Average Al: I enjoyed your possible explanation of the McGuff video and his possibly adapting his approach. Perhaps the post of the year.

I also think Mark is a very smart, well read pharmacist whose posts add value to this forum. They are very thought provoking as long as his posts, and the responses to his post are kept on a civil level.

I truly advocate for civility as this forum has become the intellectual go to site for knowledge concerning exercise. While that may never have been the intent of Dr. Darden, it certainly has happened. Consequently, why not keep it civil and discuss topics like the knowledgeable folks that we are?


Great post. I have followed this site off and on for a long time. As well as some other HITish sites. Use to follow the Body By Science blog. I really enjoy all the different perspectives. I may not see or do it like this person or at that person but still like being shown or told something I may never have thought about or had my attention drawn to. Somethings change as you go along. Your views change. And it's of course up to the individual what you do for strength training or anything you do. I have deleted a lot of my posts here and other sites thinking that my words were lacking and not giving accurate information or possibly limiting or even harmful. I am all for discussion and disagreement, ideally civil, but then of course there is the limitation of time too. And these are words on a screen, if you don't like what a certain person has too say you don't have to even read it. I try to type as if I were sitting in person having a conversation here. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and ideas over all this time.
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