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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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Bastion

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.


I need to correct myself on this. I can gain strength, despite losing "the feel" for a movement training a bodypart every 8-12 days. But I definitely lose size and muscularity once beyond the 7-9 day mark. 1 on 2 off is as far as I would go now, and sometimes do. How people can progress or even have the feel for an excercise, training a bodypart every 18-28 days is just insane to me.

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hit4me

Florida, USA

Bastion wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.

I need to correct myself on this. I can gain strength, despite losing "the feel" for a movement training a bodypart every 8-12 days. But I definitely lose size and muscularity once beyond the 7-9 day mark. 1 on 2 off is as far as I would go now, and sometimes do. How people can progress or even have the feel for an excercise, training a bodypart every 18-28 days is just insane to me.



I have to train the bodypart 2x/week....any less than that I lose size and strength also lose the feel of the movements....anymore than that and I overtrain?.so its Wednesdays and sundays for me
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sirloin

entsminger wrote:
me even lost size.

This is why i say am NOT a "bodybuilder", inspite of lifting weights, am under no illusion that when i train (especially as i do) am not gonna build an ounce of that sweet SUCKulation muscle lol.
I see each workout as an opertunity to hone and improve upon a skill / plus to maintain a decent level of mobility. Its also good med for my depression.

==Scott==
The funny thing is I?m sort of the opposite. Generally I?ve been stronger than average since I started lifting young and well strong enough to do anything I need to do in daily life so I work to look stronger vrs being stronger. I mean what good would it do me to bench 450 or whatever? How often does a need like that come up?


Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

Most everyday naturals will hit their genetic ceiling as far as building size goes a lot sooner then they think, of course the industry wants them to believe theyve got a lot left in the tank...if only:)
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Bastion

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.


What I believe ruins the HD2 routine, is the delt and arm workout. Just no need for it and to space everything apart that far. A twice a week upper lower split works very well. You could train for example, chest and back, with either delts or arms alternating each week. The back and chest should be trained weekly imo, which gives the delts and arms some work of course. I think many have had much better results with the original push pull split.

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Average Al

Nwlifter wrote:

It's sad how this all went....

And here is a photo from many years ago from Clarance Bass' site from one of Kevin's articles

I think we should all just calm down on this, it's gotten so out of hand.



I remember reading several of Kevin's articles years ago. I found them quite interesting, even if they didn't cause me to change much of what I was doing at the time.

One thing for Kevin (and the rest of us) to remember: The internet is loaded with false, distorted, heavily spun, or highly misleading information. This forum isn't exempt. The sensible default position is to be a little skeptical of everything you read, and seek verification.

To quote something from one of Kevin's articles on the mikementzer web site:

"If Mike left anything behind, it was the belief every aspect of training, and life, should be critically analysed and assessed and not blindly accepted."

Good advice...


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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

==Scott==
Each of us has their own goals.Not that I really accomplished this but for me I guess it's always been to look good for the girls. A big guy like Clint Walker walks down the beach the girls turn their heads.How often do girls turn their heads when a power lifter walks by? Oh Olivia, did you know that guy can squat 600? Yea sure, ha ha.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

"If Mike left anything behind, it was the belief every aspect of training, and life, should be critically analysed and assessed and not blindly accepted."

==Scott==
Exactly how I feel. I was never thrilled with Mentzers workout ideas as much as his philosophy.He often pushed one method of workout he was trying to sell in his book while having done another. His keen analytical eye was what I really enjoyed about him hence my questioning things that sometimes make people very angry.
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sirloin

entsminger wrote:
Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

==Scott==
Each of us has their own goals.Not that I really accomplished this but for me I guess it's always been to look good for the girls. A big guy like Clint Walker walks down the beach the girls turn their heads.How often do girls turn their heads when a power lifter walks by? Oh Olivia, did you know that guy can squat 600? Yea sure, ha ha.


The pic is one i took of 4x wsm,Big Z at this years masters worlds strongest man, note the size of his belly, believe me, he turned heads and dropped jaws. So did the organiser Glenn Ross (former 3x Britians strongest man and 6x Uks sm), inspite of well over 400lb.

Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

=Scott=
I think his foundation was damn good genetics, ha ha.I could be wrong but I believe he trained like Gironda would advocate.Build up big shoulders like a Don Howorth and no squats to build up to big glutes and thighs.I think he worked out but was not a fanatic about it.
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Average Al

entsminger wrote:
Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

=Scott=
I think his foundation was damn good genetics, ha ha.I could be wrong but I believe he trained like Gironda would advocate.Build up big shoulders like a Don Howorth and no squats to build up to big glutes and thighs.I think he worked out but was not a fanatic about it.


https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=1IknyHOdKAQ

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ron33

sirloin wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

==Scott==
Each of us has their own goals.Not that I really accomplished this but for me I guess it's always been to look good for the girls. A big guy like Clint Walker walks down the beach the girls turn their heads.How often do girls turn their heads when a power lifter walks by? Oh Olivia, did you know that guy can squat 600? Yea sure, ha ha.

The pic is one i took of 4x wsm,Big Z at this years masters worlds strongest man, note the size of his belly, believe me, he turned heads and dropped jaws. So did the organiser Glenn Ross (former 3x Britians strongest man and 6x Uks sm), inspite of well over 400lb.

Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

I was fortunate as a teen, to see impressive guys like Grymko , Platz ,Wilkosz , David and Peter Paul, Arnold when he was training for Conan . But one thing I wont forget, is seeing Larry Pacifico in a Tuxedo with the sleeves cut off it at the shoulders . It was pretty wild lookin ...
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ron33

sirloin wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

==Scott==
Each of us has their own goals.Not that I really accomplished this but for me I guess it's always been to look good for the girls. A big guy like Clint Walker walks down the beach the girls turn their heads.How often do girls turn their heads when a power lifter walks by? Oh Olivia, did you know that guy can squat 600? Yea sure, ha ha.

The pic is one i took of 4x wsm,Big Z at this years masters worlds strongest man, note the size of his belly, believe me, he turned heads and dropped jaws. So did the organiser Glenn Ross (former 3x Britians strongest man and 6x Uks sm), inspite of well over 400lb.

Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

I was fortunate as a teen, to see impressive guys like Grymko , Platz ,Wilkosz , David and Peter Paul, Arnold when he was training for Conan . But one thing I wont forget, is seeing Larry Pacifico in a Tuxedo with the sleeves cut off it at the shoulders . It was pretty wild lookin ...
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ron33

sirloin wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Hitting strength PRs / goal achievement has many benifits outside of just being able to do daily tasks easier, such as improved self esteem, confidence etc.

==Scott==
Each of us has their own goals.Not that I really accomplished this but for me I guess it's always been to look good for the girls. A big guy like Clint Walker walks down the beach the girls turn their heads.How often do girls turn their heads when a power lifter walks by? Oh Olivia, did you know that guy can squat 600? Yea sure, ha ha.

The pic is one i took of 4x wsm,Big Z at this years masters worlds strongest man, note the size of his belly, believe me, he turned heads and dropped jaws. So did the organiser Glenn Ross (former 3x Britians strongest man and 6x Uks sm), inspite of well over 400lb.

Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

I was fortunate as a teen, to see impressive guys like Grymko , Platz ,Wilkosz , David and Peter Paul, Arnold when he was training for Conan . But one thing I wont forget, is seeing Larry Pacifico in a Tuxedo with the sleeves cut off it at the shoulders . It was pretty wild lookin ...
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sirloin

entsminger wrote:
Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

=Scott=
I think his foundation was damn good genetics, ha ha.I could be wrong but I believe he trained like Gironda would advocate.Build up big shoulders like a Don Howorth and no squats to build up to big glutes and thighs.I think he worked out but was not a fanatic about it.


Yeap outstanding genetics, so the everyday smuck with average genetics (even above average) is not going to look anything like Walker by natural means, no matter what program they follow, no matter what supplements they use, no matter how much protein they down etc.

The main reason as to why so many turn to drugs, is because it doesnt take long for them to work out they wont build anywhere near as much muscle by natural means as they desire, and by "desire", i mean the kind of physique that "turns heads".

Doesnt help when youve youtubers, sports persons, actors etc using gear but claiming to be natural.
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Resultsbased

sirloin wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

=Scott=
I think his foundation was damn good genetics, ha ha.I could be wrong but I believe he trained like Gironda would advocate.Build up big shoulders like a Don Howorth and no squats to build up to big glutes and thighs.I think he worked out but was not a fanatic about it.

Yeap outstanding genetics, so the everyday smuck with average genetics (even above average) is not going to look anything like Walker by natural means, no matter what program they follow, no matter what supplements they use, no matter how much protein they down etc.

The main reason as to why so many turn to drugs, is because it doesnt take long for them to work out they wont build anywhere near as much muscle by natural means as they desire, and by "desire", i mean the kind of physique that "turns heads".

Doesnt help when youve youtubers, sports persons, actors etc using gear but claiming to be natural.


Really? I thought Mike O'hearn was natural...supposedly really great genetics and duck eggs!
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Bastion

Speaking of Heavy duty. Here's Dave Palumbo and Shaun Davis talking about early 90's bodybuilding and heavy duty. Davis gives a brief explanation of his workout with Mentzer.
https://youtu.be/2ePLSn6-zx0

I would find it hard to believe that any of these guys still train heavy duty 20 years later.
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Turpin

Bastion wrote:
Speaking of Heavy duty. Here's Dave Palumbo and Shaun Davis talking about early 90's bodybuilding and heavy duty. Davis gives a brief explanation of his workout with Mentzer.
https://youtu.be/2ePLSn6-zx0

I would find it hard to believe that any of these guys still train heavy duty 20 years later.


Shaun Davis , had kidney failure from his drug use AND a transplant some years back. I wouldn't pay much attention to any of his thoughts on training.
Altho he is now philosophical regarding his transplant and the change in his life , he is blase` in regards to his indiscriminate use of steroids , GH and insulin. Sad but typical of the drug using culture that is bodybuilding.


T.
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sirloin

Resultsbased wrote:
sirloin wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Clint Walker, what was the foundation of his training?

=Scott=
I think his foundation was damn good genetics, ha ha.I could be wrong but I believe he trained like Gironda would advocate.Build up big shoulders like a Don Howorth and no squats to build up to big glutes and thighs.I think he worked out but was not a fanatic about it.

Yeap outstanding genetics, so the everyday smuck with average genetics (even above average) is not going to look anything like Walker by natural means, no matter what program they follow, no matter what supplements they use, no matter how much protein they down etc.

The main reason as to why so many turn to drugs, is because it doesnt take long for them to work out they wont build anywhere near as much muscle by natural means as they desire, and by "desire", i mean the kind of physique that "turns heads".

Doesnt help when youve youtubers, sports persons, actors etc using gear but claiming to be natural.


Really? I thought Mike O'hearn was natural...supposedly really great genetics and duck eggs!


Oh yeah, and Ronnie was a natural Mr O while working in law enforcement, great guy though ha.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Doesnt help when youve youtubers, sports persons, actors etc using gear but claiming to be natural.

==Scott==
It's pretty obvious when you see actors like the guy who plays Thor that while filming he's on something to get bigger and it ain't Wheaties, ha ha.When you are talking about guys with big shoulders to waist ratio there is no question that genetics play a huge role.Frank Zane had naturally wide shoulders and when he packs more muscle on them they look even more impressive.If you have a bean pole physique even coconut delts might not give you the desired look of wide shoulders.I think Larry Scott is one who might have had an average shoulder width but his huge delts made his shoulders seem wide.
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Bastion

Turpin wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Speaking of Heavy duty. Here's Dave Palumbo and Shaun Davis talking about early 90's bodybuilding and heavy duty. Davis gives a brief explanation of his workout with Mentzer.
https://youtu.be/2ePLSn6-zx0

I would find it hard to believe that any of these guys still train heavy duty 20 years later.


Shaun Davis , had kidney failure from his drug use AND a transplant some years back. I wouldn't pay much attention to any of his thoughts on training.
Altho he is now philosophical regarding his transplant and the change in his life , he is blase` in regards to his indiscriminate use of steroids , GH and insulin. Sad but typical of the drug using culture that is bodybuilding.


T.


I agree T. I wouldn't take training or nutritional advice from any of those guys. He mentions eating 15,000 calories a day. Obviously high insulin use. It's sad to see how some of them look today. Tom prince comes to mind as well, David Dearth. It makes one question weather it was the low volume Heavy duty training, or was it the Heavy duty drug use!?. Many of these guys suffer with severe depression and damage to their psyche once coming off the drugs and deflating into a shadow of their former selves.

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sirloin

Bastion wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Speaking of Heavy duty. Here's Dave Palumbo and Shaun Davis talking about early 90's bodybuilding and heavy duty. Davis gives a brief explanation of his workout with Mentzer.
https://youtu.be/2ePLSn6-zx0

I would find it hard to believe that any of these guys still train heavy duty 20 years later.


Shaun Davis , had kidney failure from his drug use AND a transplant some years back. I wouldn't pay much attention to any of his thoughts on training.
Altho he is now philosophical regarding his transplant and the change in his life , he is blase` in regards to his indiscriminate use of steroids , GH and insulin. Sad but typical of the drug using culture that is bodybuilding.


T.

I agree T. I wouldn't take training or nutritional advice from any of those guys. He mentions eating 15,000 calories a day. Obviously high insulin use. It's sad to see how some of them look today. Tom prince comes to mind as well, David Dearth. It makes one question weather it was the low volume Heavy duty training, or was it the Heavy duty drug use!?. Many of these guys suffer with severe depression and damage to their psyche once coming off the drugs and deflating into a shadow of their former selves.



Don Long and Flex Wheeler aswell from that era.
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Bastion

sirloin wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Turpin wrote:
Bastion wrote:
Speaking of Heavy duty. Here's Dave Palumbo and Shaun Davis talking about early 90's bodybuilding and heavy duty. Davis gives a brief explanation of his workout with Mentzer.
https://youtu.be/2ePLSn6-zx0

I would find it hard to believe that any of these guys still train heavy duty 20 years later.


Shaun Davis , had kidney failure from his drug use AND a transplant some years back. I wouldn't pay much attention to any of his thoughts on training.
Altho he is now philosophical regarding his transplant and the change in his life , he is blase` in regards to his indiscriminate use of steroids , GH and insulin. Sad but typical of the drug using culture that is bodybuilding.


T.

I agree T. I wouldn't take training or nutritional advice from any of those guys. He mentions eating 15,000 calories a day. Obviously high insulin use. It's sad to see how some of them look today. Tom prince comes to mind as well, David Dearth. It makes one question weather it was the low volume Heavy duty training, or was it the Heavy duty drug use!?. Many of these guys suffer with severe depression and damage to their psyche once coming off the drugs and deflating into a shadow of their former selves.



Don Long and Flex Wheeler aswell from that era.


Greg Kovacs
Paul Demayo
Mike Matarazzo
Nasser el Sonbaty

The golden era of bodybuilding, no doubt.

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HeavyHitter32

Bastion wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.

What I believe ruins the HD2 routine, is the delt and arm workout. Just no need for it and to space everything apart that far. A twice a week upper lower split works very well. You could train for example, chest and back, with either delts or arms alternating each week. The back and chest should be trained weekly imo, which gives the delts and arms some work of course. I think many have had much better results with the original push pull split.



Yeah, I agree. With HD2, you end up working chest and back potentially only once every 21-28 days or something like that if I recall. lol

I have found if only training twice per week, an upper/lower back split is best.

I also agree HD1 with the three way split is the best Mentzer framework.
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Bastion

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.

What I believe ruins the HD2 routine, is the delt and arm workout. Just no need for it and to space everything apart that far. A twice a week upper lower split works very well. You could train for example, chest and back, with either delts or arms alternating each week. The back and chest should be trained weekly imo, which gives the delts and arms some work of course. I think many have had much better results with the original push pull split.



Yeah, I agree. With HD2, you end up working chest and back potentially only once every 21-28 days or something like that if I recall. lol

I have found if only training twice per week, an upper/lower back split is best.

I also agree HD1 with the three way split is the best Mentzer framework.


For twice a week I like
Back, delts, biceps
Legs, chest, triceps.
Or just an upper lower.

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StuKE

Bastion wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Bastion wrote:

Heavy Duty 2 was an awful experience for me. Makes perfect sense in theory, on paper. I found, and have found many times over the years that once I go past 7-9 days of not training a bodypart, I regress in both strength and size. Yet Heavy Duty 1 split was one of my most successful routines ever.


I can relate to this. I can get stronger training a muscle every 10+ days, but my size and muscularity will decrease.

What I believe ruins the HD2 routine, is the delt and arm workout. Just no need for it and to space everything apart that far. A twice a week upper lower split works very well. You could train for example, chest and back, with either delts or arms alternating each week. The back and chest should be trained weekly imo, which gives the delts and arms some work of course. I think many have had much better results with the original push pull split.



Yeah, I agree. With HD2, you end up working chest and back potentially only once every 21-28 days or something like that if I recall. lol

I have found if only training twice per week, an upper/lower back split is best.

I also agree HD1 with the three way split is the best Mentzer framework.

For twice a week I like
Back, delts, biceps
Legs, chest, triceps.
Or just an upper lower.



With the former, you get a degree of overlap which may be desirable in fhat yiu are working some muscles to a degree, twicee a week. For me, hitting a muscle once like you would on a 2 days a week workout, upper /lowef spliy seems to many days between working the same muscle again.
On the flip side, with the former you could end up doing squats one day, deadlift on the other which woukd be taxing to the back and legs.
Personally, with a sit down job, no heaby, low reps, little to failure training and reasonable length training sessions, I should be able to recover just fine either way.
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