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'Functional Training and HIT'
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

1958 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
I?m still confused. What do the words ?moment arm ? have to do with what the movement or action is? Does it have something do do with the moment the resistance is off a certain muscle? The term moment is throwing me for a loop.

try this
https://www.ptdirect.com/...-squat-analysis

==Scott==
Ok I sort of see the "moment arm" is the area between the joints but what do the words Moment arm have to do with it? Is there some meaning to "moment" or could it have easily have been called fruit loop arm?
My goodness! And you call yourself an educator?!
Do some simple research and educate yourself!


=== Scott==
I could say that for every question put forth on here 1958 , who ever the hell you are?? Yea everyone just stop asking questions on here and just do your research , would make for a great forum!
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA


simon-hecubus wrote:
entsminger wrote:
===Scott==
I think Bill is a smart guy and most everything he talks to I agree with. He is hard for some lunk heads like me to understand at times as his terminology goes over our heads( I still don?t understand the term moment arm, ha ha) but he?s generally right on stuff he has to say.

When you do Curls, the moment arm is the distance from your elbow to the palm of your hand. When you do Toe Press (aka calf raises) it's the distance from the ball of your foot to the ankle joint.

Longer moment arms make small masses seem large and visa versa.

This may help you understand why you use much less weight on curls than toe presses!! And why you use even less on Lateral Raises (moment arm is you entire arm from deltoid to palm) --- and why bent-arm LRs help you use more weight!


Bill De Simone wrote:
A technical correction: in the free weight curl, the moment arm is the horizontal distance from elbow to hand. So its greatest at 90 degree bend, smallest when the elbow is straight. Much easier to explain with a diagram.


Yes, Bill. I was keeping it simple, by leaving angles out of it.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:

simon-hecubus wrote:
entsminger wrote:
===Scott==
I think Bill is a smart guy and most everything he talks to I agree with. He is hard for some lunk heads like me to understand at times as his terminology goes over our heads( I still don?t understand the term moment arm, ha ha) but he?s generally right on stuff he has to say.

When you do Curls, the moment arm is the distance from your elbow to the palm of your hand. When you do Toe Press (aka calf raises) it's the distance from the ball of your foot to the ankle joint.

Longer moment arms make small masses seem large and visa versa.

This may help you understand why you use much less weight on curls than toe presses!! And why you use even less on Lateral Raises (moment arm is you entire arm from deltoid to palm) --- and why bent-arm LRs help you use more weight!


Bill De Simone wrote:
A technical correction: in the free weight curl, the moment arm is the horizontal distance from elbow to hand. So its greatest at 90 degree bend, smallest when the elbow is straight. Much easier to explain with a diagram.

Yes, Bill. I was keeping it simple, by leaving angles out of it.


And this is why I started downplaying the phrase "moment arm" (not mine, standard biomechanics) and focused more on how to protect the joints. Because practically if you do that, moment arm issues take care of themselves.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Yes, Bill. I was keeping it simple, by leaving angles out of it.


And this is why I started downplaying the phrase "moment arm" (not mine, standard biomechanics) and focused more on how to protect the joints. Because practically if you do that, moment arm issues take care of themselves.

===Scott ===
And the fuss and nastiness that results so often on here when a question is not easy to answer makes it not worth asking in the first place. Sorry I bothered.
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Turpin

entsminger wrote:
===Scott ===
And the fuss and nastiness that results so often on here when a question is not easy to answer makes it not worth asking in the first place. Sorry I bothered.


C`mon Scott , If you have not done yer PHD or at least studied bio-mechanics and bio-chemistry before attempting to post on here then yer just a troll . Weight training experience Blah ! .. Get some revision done Ha , ha.


T.

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Resultsbased

entsminger wrote:
Yes, Bill. I was keeping it simple, by leaving angles out of it.


And this is why I started downplaying the phrase "moment arm" (not mine, standard biomechanics) and focused more on how to protect the joints. Because practically if you do that, moment arm issues take care of themselves.

===Scott ===
And the fuss and nastiness that results so often on here when a question is not easy to answer makes it not worth asking in the first place. Sorry I bothered.


No kidding, Scott.

The pseudo-intellectuals could just some it up with one word - TORQUE, but hey, attacking others and acting like experts on these matters is what you get here.
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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
I?m still confused. What do the words ?moment arm ? have to do with what the movement or action is? Does it have something do do with the moment the resistance is off a certain muscle? The term moment is throwing me for a loop.

try this
https://www.ptdirect.com/...-squat-analysis

==Scott==
Ok I sort of see the "moment arm" is the area between the joints but what do the words Moment arm have to do with it? Is there some meaning to "moment" or could it have easily have been called fruit loop arm?
My goodness! And you call yourself an educator?!
Do some simple research and educate yourself!


=== Scott==
I could say that for every question put forth on here 1958 , who ever the hell you are?? Yea everyone just stop asking questions on here and just do your research , would make for a great forum!


Confused, was that to me about the link I posted for you? you have a few quotes in there before your response?
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

entsminger wrote:
===Scott ===
And the fuss and nastiness that results so often on here when a question is not easy to answer makes it not worth asking in the first place. Sorry I bothered.


Resultsbased wrote:
No kidding, Scott.

The pseudo-intellectuals could just some it up with one word - TORQUE, but hey, attacking others and acting like experts on these matters is what you get here.


To know what the "Torque" is, one must understand the instantaneous moment arm and the direction of the applied force.

You've simplified nothing by tossing this one word into the mix to "sum it up".
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Nwlifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
I?m still confused. What do the words ?moment arm ? have to do with what the movement or action is? Does it have something do do with the moment the resistance is off a certain muscle? The term moment is throwing me for a loop.

try this
https://www.ptdirect.com/...-squat-analysis

==Scott==
Ok I sort of see the "moment arm" is the area between the joints but what do the words Moment arm have to do with it? Is there some meaning to "moment" or could it have easily have been called fruit loop arm?
My goodness! And you call yourself an educator?!
Do some simple research and educate yourself!


=== Scott==
I could say that for every question put forth on here 1958 , who ever the hell you are?? Yea everyone just stop asking questions on here and just do your research , would make for a great forum!

Confused, was that to me about the link I posted for you? you have a few quotes in there before your response?


==Scott==
I believe that was for posted 1958 who ever that is. Just forget it. I?m tired of this .
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Gainz

This thread reminds me of Bruce Lee's Enter the Dragon
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Resultsbased

simon-hecubus wrote:
entsminger wrote:
===Scott ===
And the fuss and nastiness that results so often on here when a question is not easy to answer makes it not worth asking in the first place. Sorry I bothered.


Resultsbased wrote:
No kidding, Scott.

The pseudo-intellectuals could just some it up with one word - TORQUE, but hey, attacking others and acting like experts on these matters is what you get here.

To know what the "Torque" is, one must understand the instantaneous moment arm and the direction of the applied force.

You've simplified nothing by tossing this one word into the mix to "sum it up".


Thanks for the lesson in vocabulary - the phone has this thing called auto correct, but I'm sure you have the best intentions. I'll do better now that I know you are proof reading my posts...

I doubt many are interested in the moment arm formula or Varignon's therom, but torque is a term most individuals without advanced physics can understand.

Thanks for your wisdom.




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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
1958 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
I?m still confused. What do the words ?moment arm ? have to do with what the movement or action is? Does it have something do do with the moment the resistance is off a certain muscle? The term moment is throwing me for a loop.

try this
https://www.ptdirect.com/...-squat-analysis

==Scott==
Ok I sort of see the "moment arm" is the area between the joints but what do the words Moment arm have to do with it? Is there some meaning to "moment" or could it have easily have been called fruit loop arm?
My goodness! And you call yourself an educator?!
Do some simple research and educate yourself!


=== Scott==
I could say that for every question put forth on here 1958 , who ever the hell you are?? Yea everyone just stop asking questions on here and just do your research , would make for a great forum!

Confused, was that to me about the link I posted for you? you have a few quotes in there before your response?

==Scott==
I believe that was for posted 1958 who ever that is. Just forget it. I?m tired of this .


LOL OK!
Are you totally tired of it, or just tired of it for the moment? heh heh
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Resultsbased wrote:
Thanks for the lesson in vocabulary - the phone has this thing called auto correct, but I'm sure you have the best intentions. I'll do better now that I know you are proof reading my posts...

I doubt many are interested in the moment arm formula or Varignon's therom, but torque is a term most individuals without advanced physics can understand...


1. Varignon's Theorem (NOT therom) has nothing to do with torque or moment arm.

2. How can say you understand torque, yet not understand that it and the moment arm are inextricably linked?

3. I don't care about the equation per se, BUT one must understand that the longer the moment arm, the greater the torque will be, given the same applied force. Seems like an elementary concept to me.

Saying that people will understand Torque, but not understand Moment Arm is like saying that people can jump to Trigonometry without first learning Geometry.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
So Bill, I take it you are done with this thread?
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Resultsbased

simon-hecubus wrote:
Resultsbased wrote:
Thanks for the lesson in vocabulary - the phone has this thing called auto correct, but I'm sure you have the best intentions. I'll do better now that I know you are proof reading my posts...

I doubt many are interested in the moment arm formula or Varignon's therom, but torque is a term most individuals without advanced physics can understand...

1. Varignon's Theorem (NOT therom) has nothing to do with torque or moment arm.

2. How can say you understand torque, yet not understand that it and the moment arm are inextricably linked?

3. I don't care about the equation per se, BUT one must understand that the longer the moment arm, the greater the torque will be, given the same applied force. Seems like an elementary concept to me.

Saying that people will understand Torque, but not understand Moment Arm is like saying that people can jump to Trigonometry without first learning Geometry.


1) FALSE, it has everything to do with torque.

2) I didn't say that - please correct me if i did.

3) I agree, but what seems elementary to you might not be as easily understood by many as the term moment arm triggered questions and confusion.

Does understanding moment arm help anyone in the pursuit of muscle? Perhaps, but it seems to be unnecessarily confusing.

Sorry for the continued typos, the phone does what it wants!


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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Bill De Simone wrote:
Now, 2018. No competitive bodybuilder or pro team even mentions Nautilus or HIT. The Nautilus, Medx, and Hammer are brands, not philosophies, and are barely visible in the health club industry. Health clubs have gutted their machines for tires and sledge hammers. Bookstores?

But, ask a new grad or newly certified trainer or even a reader of mainstream news if they've ever heard of Functional Training, and I guarantee you they've heard the phrase. They may not be able to define it or explain it, but they've seen it.

And in spite of all the hype about Functional Training, you know that some new trainer or new exerciser looks at it and says, there is no way I'm having Grandma swing a kettlebell or flip a tire. Unfortunately, unless they already know HIT, there is no readily available alternative.

So. Putting Functional Training in the title gives the course a shot at drawing those eyeballs, and gave me an excuse to break down the biomechanics involved. It's not a rant against it, sorry, I'm sure you'll find those easily. I tried to lay out what was usable under the broad umbrella "FT" from the point of view of being congruent with anatomy and biomechanics, and finished with how to incorporate the useful stuff into a HIT approach.

I'm sure some of you reading already hate it. Noted. For everyone else, I'll post links to video clips and some excerpts here over the next few days. Simon is making quite a bit of non-paying material available so people are comfortable with the purchase, and if you decide not to, enjoy the free stuff anyway.
https://www.hituni.com/...cvZFzx4


I sometimes visit gyms excuse me ,fitness centers and I talk to the staff. They are all mostly very young and I've yet to find a single one who ever heard of Nautilus. Forget about asking them if they've heard of Arthur Jones.
If even talked to a few competing bodybuilders and they all knew Arnold but Sergio,no clue.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid


The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

sirloin wrote:
Turpin wrote:


Bill De Simone wrote:

in spite of all the hype about Functional Training, you know that some new trainer or new exerciser looks at it and says, there is no way I'm having Grandma swing a kettlebell or flip a tire. Unfortunately, unless they already know HIT, there is no readily available alternative.

???????????.
Turpin wrote :

Absolute nonsense ! ? Are you saying that those two extremes are all there is ? Or that one must know HIT to offer any machine based ( or even any sensible free weight ) training routine ?

T.


Nothing more to say than the opening post is absolute nonsense and posted to be intentionally provocative.

T.

That opening statement makes me wonder how i got my sis-in-law (who is a grandma) doing 250lb farmers walks and deadlifts, tire flips, heavy prowler pushes, KB swings, viking presses etc...in only a few months after being bed ridden with fibromyalgia for several years.




According to most on this forum your sis in law ( grandmother ) is simply a genetic anomaly ! ..whilst proclaiming their own genetic predisposition prevents them from doing much at all , BUT they can/will tell you where you are going wrong with your own progress.

T.


Theres an "intense" dislikement within the HIT community for anything that does not have you sit on a seat of an expensive machine or move a barbell very slowly. Heck, after reading all the popular HIT guys articles i was brainwashed too (im sure you recall from the other forum lol), wear and tear was the devil, might as well have bought myself a bubble rap suit.
Thankfully i started salting in farmers walks, then prowler pushes, as i got stronger i started TBDLing, first light partials, then off 4" blocks, then the floor, then deficits, soon after i could flip tires, walk with the super yoke, carry sandbags, press standing, swing KBs etc.
At the end of last year i TBDLed 600lb off 4" blocks, this year im closing in on a 600lb TBDL off the floor. So if a stroke victim with 3 herniated discs like me can do it, am confident in saying most people can do it. You just gotta break out of the mould.


Would it work for a guy like Woody Allen ?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

== Scott ==
So Bill, I went back and watched 10 or so of your beginning Moment arm videos on YouTube . While I still have trouble figuring out your terminology like active insuficiency and some others I think with out understanding the terms I do get what you mean. I for one would like to hear more from you on whatever the hell you were talking about in the first place.
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Bill De Simone

New Jersey, USA

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
So Bill, I take it you are done with this thread?


Heh. It's gotten unwieldy, hasn't it? I don't mind honest inquiries, it just takes too long to weed out the cheap shots and trolling. But thanks for your attempts at actual discussion, and thanks to the others for keeping the post visible. As happened with Moment Arm Exercise and Congruent Exercise, every time someone takes a shot, others who are interested ignore the shot and look into the material.
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Average Al

Bill Sekerak wrote:
Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid

The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .


So you and David prefer non-functional training? Can you give me an example?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I have been having trouble doing a chin with my hands facing away from me and about shoulder width or a little wider like as seen in another thread on here where these guys are doing a chin contest. Are the hands facing away from me a non congruent or unsafe method compared to the palms facing each other as in your moment arm chin video?
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Ellington Darden

Average Al wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid

The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .

So you and David prefer non-functional training? Can you give me an example?


I like the term "indifferent" applied to training. Non-functional training could be labeled indifferent training. In other words, when the activities of practice are unrelated to what happens in competition.

For example, a set of slow, negative-only chins and dips would make your torso and arms bigger and stronger. And doing so would make you a faster swinger of a bat in baseball. Thus, your hitting ability in baseball would improve.

Ellington
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Average Al

Ellington Darden wrote:
Average Al wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid

The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .

So you and David prefer non-functional training? Can you give me an example?

I like the term "indifferent" applied to training. Non-functional training could be labeled indifferent training. In other words, when the activities of practice are unrelated to what happens in competition.

For example, a set of slow, negative-only chins and dips would make your torso and arms bigger and stronger. And doing so would make you a faster swinger of a bat in baseball. Thus, your hitting ability in baseball would improve.

Ellington


Thanks for the reply, but I wasn't really posing a serious question.


My point is that equating "functional training" to "silly bull shit" is great fun, but not particularly insightful or useful, especially since the opposite of functional training is non-functional training, and who wants to waste time on training that doesn't improve function.

At this point,"functional training" is just a vague marketing term that has no clear meaning, so arguments about its value are likely to go around in circles.


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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Average Al wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Landau wrote:
Functional Training being used for ANYTHING is just Plain Stupid

The voice of reason strikes again. Thank you David for that .

So you and David prefer non-functional training? Can you give me an example?

I like the term "indifferent" applied to training. Non-functional training could be labeled indifferent training. In other words, when the activities of practice are unrelated to what happens in competition.

For example, a set of slow, negative-only chins and dips would make your torso and arms bigger and stronger. And doing so would make you a faster swinger of a bat in baseball. Thus, your hitting ability in baseball would improve.

Ellington


== Scott ==
I?m glad you said this Dr. Darden as it seems many have the notion that swinging a bat is the only way to improve your swing . I?m of the opinion that more muscle almost always could result in better performance in many sports .
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