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must be done . . . and quickly."
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Dr. Darden: Static Contractions
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ATP 4 Vitality

Bill Sekerak wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote


Once you start moving how long does it take for the synovial fluid to reach the proper viscosity to minimize the possibility of an injury occurring while exercising with resistance significant enough to stimulate the production of measurable results?


No one knows!

Bill, what is your best guess?


I would think body temperature would need to be elevated for a while. This would of course need to be individualized. For sure it is not the first 2 or 3 reps of an initial HIT set to failure. Seems HIT should have listened to the old-timers who did loads of warm up sets.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Bill Sekerak wrote:
sirloin wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
sirloin wrote:
For some time, ive had a hard time buying into the idea of micro trauma / tears. I saw better growth in legs from heavy prowler pushes than with squats and leg presses, better trap growth with TBDLs off blocks and farmers walks than with shrugs.

There is a lack of facts, logic, and knowledge to promote microtrauma as the main driver of hypertrophy. The old preponderance of evidence argument is a poor debate tactic. Don't fall for it!




Yeah, the idea of causing these tears and them recovering and coming back stronger just doesnt make sense to me, when our skin for example is cut or tore and heals, it doesnt come back stronger, its becomes scare tissue...which is weaker!



I also dont buy into increased protein syntheis, or growth hormone release etc, Imo the main cause is electrical, CNS driven for the most part. Jones talked about the indirect effect of exercise (throwing a stone in a pool and it creating a wave that run to the edges of the pool).

In my last discussion with Arthur,1996, we discussed the validity of indirect effect in light of his research on type S and type G trainees.
We both came to the same conclusion , independently, that the above mentioned studies basically invalidated indirect effect ,with a small part of the population that have the ability to ,in effect , exhibit a small and limited " indirect effect " ie, type G trainees. These are the same trainees that can " get away " with partial reps to a certain degree but would still more fully benefit from full rom.
However the larger population exhibited zero indirect effect i.e. type S trainees.


Drew Baye wrote a nice article on the neurological effects of statics.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:




This /\ is very good. I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining at "failure".


AND one of the reasons I am the most hated poster of all HIT posters. Dr. McGuff booted me off. Lawrence has made his intentions clear also.

You are interested in healthy sustainable exercise. Guess what , so am I. Cardiovascular conditioning is the next frontier of HIT, not joint care. Attitudes will change. So what if a super slow advocate refers to cardio with a vile word such as whore. Skyler says discussing cardio is simple overthinking.

I have been thinking of synovial fluid for a while. I have been dispensing the injectables for joints for some time. Something should be said for preserving range of motion ie stretching. Maybe you can do this.

Just for you

We try to protect joints. You specialize in this. You can utilize a rotary movement to warm up the vulnerable spine joints, and, to get the synovial fluids hot, and then utilize heavy static contractions simultaneously.

Hint:
A Grey Cook bar for rotary wood chops into a static chest press. You do know that McGuff will not approve! You can rest assured that Lawrence will not ask about this also. Finally, about 3 years from now, Drew will have discovered this with a new article.
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Nwlifter

Fatso wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
In my last discussion with Arthur... we discussed the validity of indirect effect in light of his research on type S and type G trainees. We both came to the same conclusion... that the above mentioned studies basically invalidated indirect effect...

Now, that's interesting. I definitely feel a systemic (indirect) effect when I train BUT I have found, even if I train really hard, when I don't train a specific muscle group for some time, that muscle group will shrink.

My conclusions over the years are that the analogy of dropping a stone into a pool causes a series of ripples throughout the pool (i.e. indirect effect) is true to a degree but it is not stimulus for muscle growth that was Jones first hypothesis. More likely it is an indirect on metabolism, heart rate, blood volume etc.



right for sure. Indirect is a myth. Muscle cells will NOT no way, hypertrophy unless they themselves feel tension and 'work'. Even when we directly train a muscle all fibers are not stimulated or stimulated equally, so the idea that squats can cause arm growth is quite impossible.
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sirloin

Bill Sekerak wrote:
sirloin wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
sirloin wrote:
For some time, ive had a hard time buying into the idea of micro trauma / tears. I saw better growth in legs from heavy prowler pushes than with squats and leg presses, better trap growth with TBDLs off blocks and farmers walks than with shrugs.

There is a lack of facts, logic, and knowledge to promote microtrauma as the main driver of hypertrophy. The old preponderance of evidence argument is a poor debate tactic. Don't fall for it!

Yeah, the idea of causing these tears and them recovering and coming back stronger just doesnt make sense to me, when our skin for example is cut or tore and heals, it doesnt come back stronger, its becomes scare tissue...which is weaker!
I also dont buy into increased protein syntheis, or growth hormone release etc, Imo the main cause is electrical, CNS driven for the most part. Jones talked about the indirect effect of exercise (throwing a stone in a pool and it creating a wave that run to the edges of the pool).

In my last discussion with Arthur,1996, we discussed the validity of indirect effect in light of his research on type S and type G trainees.
We both came to the same conclusion , independently, that the above mentioned studies basically invalidated indirect effect ,with a small part of the population that have the ability to ,in effect , exhibit a small and limited " indirect effect " ie, type G trainees. These are the same trainees that can " get away " with partial reps to a certain degree but would still more fully benefit from full rom.
However the larger population exhibited zero indirect effect i.e. type S trainees.


Interesting stuff, i seem to do better with max static holds and reduced (effective ROM) on most exercises.
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sirloin

Fatso wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
In my last discussion with Arthur... we discussed the validity of indirect effect in light of his research on type S and type G trainees. We both came to the same conclusion... that the above mentioned studies basically invalidated indirect effect...

Now, that's interesting. I definitely feel a systemic (indirect) effect when I train BUT I have found, even if I train really hard, when I don't train a specific muscle group for some time, that muscle group will shrink.

My conclusions over the years are that the analogy of dropping a stone into a pool causes a series of ripples throughout the pool (i.e. indirect effect) is true to a degree but it is not stimulus for muscle growth that was Jones first hypothesis. More likely it is an indirect on metabolism, heart rate, blood volume etc.



My biceps shrank a half inch last year when focusing on bringing my TBDL up, after a certain point they maintained. I came to the conculsion the loss was from from reduced edema and imflammation, as when i started training them hard again they soon return to their former size.
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sirloin

Nwlifter wrote:
Fatso wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
In my last discussion with Arthur... we discussed the validity of indirect effect in light of his research on type S and type G trainees. We both came to the same conclusion... that the above mentioned studies basically invalidated indirect effect...

Now, that's interesting. I definitely feel a systemic (indirect) effect when I train BUT I have found, even if I train really hard, when I don't train a specific muscle group for some time, that muscle group will shrink.

My conclusions over the years are that the analogy of dropping a stone into a pool causes a series of ripples throughout the pool (i.e. indirect effect) is true to a degree but it is not stimulus for muscle growth that was Jones first hypothesis. More likely it is an indirect on metabolism, heart rate, blood volume etc.



right for sure. Indirect is a myth. Muscle cells will NOT no way, hypertrophy unless they themselves feel tension and 'work'. Even when we directly train a muscle all fibers are not stimulated or stimulated equally, so the idea that squats can cause arm growth is quite impossible.


Last year at the strongman gym i trained at, there was a deadlift specialist, he trained twice per week, working up to a max dl, and then he' preform a single set of v-bar pulldowns to failure with the 130kg stack, that was it. This indivdual experience growth it his chest, arms and calfs, inspite of no real direct work (yes i know pulldown also effect more than the lats). It was he actually that inspired me to start focusing on deadlift (inspite of my back issues).
Yes, this indivdual had good genetics...but was not on drugs, his job was retrieving bodies from rivers, lakes, sea for the authorities, he gets tested twice a year randomly.


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1958

Texas, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:




This /\ is very good. I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining aND one of the reasons I am the most hated poster of all HIT posters. Dr. McGuff booted me off. Lawrence has made his intentions clear also.

You are interested in healthy sustainable exercise. Guess what , so am I. Cardiovascular conditioning is the next frontier of HIT, not joint care. Attitudes will change. So what if a super slow advocate refers to cardio with a vile word such as whore. Skyler says discussing cardio is simple overthinking.

I have been thinking of synovial fluid for a while. I have been dispensing the injectables for joints for some time. Something should be said for preserving range of motion ie stretching. Maybe you can do this.

Just for you

We try to protect joints. You specialize in this. You can utilize a rotary movement to warm up the vulnerable spine joints, and, to get the synovial fluids hot, and then utilize heavy static contractions simultaneously.

Hint:
A Grey Cook bar for rotary wood chops into a static chest press. You do know that McGuff will not approve! You can rest assured that Lawrence will not ask about this also. Finally, about 3 years from now, Drew will have discovered this with a new article.


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1958

Texas, USA

Marc pharmacist,
McGuff booted you off because your neck measurement is much much smaller than his arm.
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:




This /\ is very good. I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining at "failure".

AND one of the reasons I am the most hated poster of all HIT posters. Dr. McGuff booted me off. Lawrence has made his intentions clear also.

You are interested in healthy sustainable exercise. Guess what , so am I. Cardiovascular conditioning is the next frontier of HIT, not joint care. Attitudes will change. So what if a super slow advocate refers to cardio with a vile word such as whore. Skyler says discussing cardio is simple overthinking.



FWIW, I've come around to your point of view on cardio. I've just seen too many studies recently which highlight the health benefits of doing cardio or aerobic activities several times a week, for sessions that last at least 30 minutes in duration.

I still think strength training is very important, but if that is all you do, I think you are probably leaving some things unaddressed.

Many HIT advocates will not be persuaded, for a variety of reasons (e.g., they are addicted to the time efficiency of HIT, or are fully bought into the idea that intensity trumps everything in exercise). No point in making a crusade of trying to persuade those who are unwilling to be persuaded.
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sirloin

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
sirloin wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
High intra-abdominal and high intra-thoracic pressures during weight lifting and especially when incorporating the Valsalva maneuver greatly decreases venous return which decreases cardiac output.

Tell me?


Is this a good tactic to improve cardiovascular improvement?


Based on my experience, theres been no issues, only positive health improvements.

As you know Marc, i believe the human body more robust than we think, my father past away 6 years ago at the age of 76, not bad for a man that almost died at 18 after contracting TB, he had half a lung removed and was told he'd be lucky to live til 50! Even after the TB, he worked for 30 years as a furniture remover, which when you think about it, such a job has one use the valslava maneuver multiple times per day, several days a week. From what ive seen, their are fitter than most.

Ultimately, theres a degree of risk with anything, here in the UK, every year, fit healthy people drop dead from cardic episodes while out jogging. I was actually present when a fit healthy 21oy suffered a near fatal heart attack in a martial arts class, only someone knew CPR he would not have made it.





I concur. The human body is tough and adapts in many ways,. The Valsalva maneuver occurs naturally due to large loads placing harsh demands on the body. The limiting factor of venous return makes meaningful cardiovascular improvement difficult. That is why intelligent trainees have incorporated both training modalities, strength and endurance, in their overall strategy.


Completely agree.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
FWIW, I've come around to your point of view on cardio. I've just seen too many studies recently which highlight the health benefits of doing cardio or aerobic activities several times a week, for sessions that last at least 30 minutes in duration.



You were never far from the truth of cardio.





I still think strength training is very important, but if that is all you do, I think you are probably leaving some things unaddressed.





I concur




Many HIT advocates will not be persuaded, for a variety of reasons (e.g., they are addicted to the time efficiency of HIT, or are fully bought into the idea that intensity trumps everything in exercise). No point in making a crusade of trying to persuade those who are unwilling to be persuaded.


I'm a contrarian, and a blue chip iron man. Young people need to be told of the deceit within HIT circles.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
Indirect is a myth.



There are cytokines called myokines.




Muscle cells will NOT no way, hypertrophy unless they themselves feel tension and 'work'. Even when we directly train a muscle all fibers are not stimulated or stimulated equally, so the idea that squats can cause arm growth is quite impossible.


True, but there is still lots to learn of muscle hypertrophy.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining at "failure".


Bill,

I'm not sure. There is no real need to find out either, when a warm-up will remedy a cold knee.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Why does Ken Hutchins/Ren-Ex do 1-4 minute duration sets?

Quote:

Intensity: Intensity is the degree of momentary effort applied in exercise. Activity that can be continued ad infinitum, like walking or jogging, is low-intensity. Brief activity causing a failure of the involved musculature within only 1-4 minutes is high-intensity. Note that intensity may refer in a limited sense to one particular exercise, or it may refer in a broader sense to a series of exercises comprising the overall workout. It is possible that one exercise is high intensity while the average intensity of the entire workout is moderate or low.

Endquote
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ATP 4 Vitality

1958 wrote:
Marc pharmacist,
McGuff booted you off because your neck measurement is much much smaller than his arm.


Btw - Dr McGuffs mentor had this to say in his article recently

Quote:

Eventually, two of these former clients (separately) visited me in Texas and deeply embarrassed me in the presence of family by reporting that their workout sessions were much improved by my student's addition of a stationary bike. After spending decades protecting these clients from the Aerobics/steady-state/cardio nonsense, this student had become a fitness whore.

End quote

This is rotten speech!

No doubt this style of speech influenced McGuff

Even in 1958 this was rotten speech



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1958

Texas, USA

And still we await for the photographic proof of the 22" neck(or has it now shrunken to 15"?).
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hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
FWIW, I've come around to your point of view on cardio. I've just seen too many studies recently which highlight the health benefits of doing cardio or aerobic activities several times a week, for sessions that last at least 30 minutes in duration.



You were never far from the truth of cardio.





I still think strength training is very important, but if that is all you do, I think you are probably leaving some things unaddressed.





I concur




Many HIT advocates will not be persuaded, for a variety of reasons (e.g., they are addicted to the time efficiency of HIT, or are fully bought into the idea that intensity trumps everything in exercise). No point in making a crusade of trying to persuade those who are unwilling to be persuaded.


I'm a contrarian, and a blue chip iron man. Young people need to be told of the deceit within HIT circles.


https://www.healthstatus.com/...n-and-benefits/
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

^ What I picture when you guys talk about McGuff's discussion page!

1958 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

This /\ is very good. I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining aND one of the reasons I am the most hated poster of all HIT posters. Dr. McGuff booted me off. Lawrence has made his intentions clear also.

You are interested in healthy sustainable exercise. Guess what , so am I. Cardiovascular conditioning is the next frontier of HIT, not joint care. Attitudes will change. So what if a super slow advocate refers to cardio with a vile word such as whore. Skyler says discussing cardio is simple overthinking...

...Hint:
A Grey Cook bar for rotary wood chops into a static chest press. You do know that McGuff will not approve! You can rest assured that Lawrence will not ask about this also. Finally, about 3 years from now, Drew will have discovered this with a new article.
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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

1958 wrote:
"... Finally, about 3 years from now, Drew will have discovered this with a new article."


This part did make me laugh, though!
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SB2006

From Dr. Ken Cooper's Aerobic Center:
https://www.cbass.com/...ngandheart.html
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

simon-hecubus wrote:
^ What I picture when you guys talk about McGuff's discussion page!

1958 wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Bill De Simone wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

This /\ is very good. I'd say it also applies to the prolonged straining aND one of the reasons I am the most hated poster of all HIT posters. Dr. McGuff booted me off. Lawrence has made his intentions clear also.

You are interested in healthy sustainable exercise. Guess what , so am I. Cardiovascular conditioning is the next frontier of HIT, not joint care. Attitudes will change. So what if a super slow advocate refers to cardio with a vile word such as whore. Skyler says discussing cardio is simple overthinking...

...Hint:
A Grey Cook bar for rotary wood chops into a static chest press. You do know that McGuff will not approve! You can rest assured that Lawrence will not ask about this also. Finally, about 3 years from now, Drew will have discovered this with a new article.


==Scott==

At least it's not General Hospital like here, ha ha.
"Nancy said, did you see the study?' and Lance said, "this could be serious, perhaps we need another study, his quads look undersized. I'm afraid no amount of squats will cure him!!" Nancy bursts into tears!!
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ATP 4 Vitality

SB2006 wrote:
From Dr. Ken Cooper's Aerobic Center:




Unfortunately, useless information
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