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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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epdavis7

Chris H wrote:
entsminger wrote:
Therefore my point is, if us recreational lifters could end up with arterial stiffening from a few hours at most of lifting a week, then surely all hard physical labours would bring about the same thing, and be worse for those who did both.

==Scott==
For what its worth ( next to nothing) even if there is any validity to the notion that HIT type workouts stiffen arteries, which is debatable, I'm still going to do it because I like doing it.It's like if they said sex can cause some heart problem am I going to then stop doing it? Hell no.
If it is ever proven that HIT type workouts do cause hardening of the arteries then more than likely cardio exercise will negate that. Same as construction work. Yea, you are carrying heavy loads up stairs over and over again. that's like HIT and cardio combined.I think you'd be good to go.

Good points Scott.

There's a cure for to much sex - get married lol


I've did some manual labor thats left me laid up for days. My wife in her infinite wisdom has created visually aesthic decorative touches to our house which required a extremely large pile of rocks (did I already say extremely) be delivered to our house which required me to shovel and wheelbarrow all around our property. I took Friday off to do it and it took all day. I only took breaks to go to the bathroom and eat. The next day I could hardly stand and every muscle in my body ached lol. Saturday and Sunday was just an achey mess of soreness and aleve and sitting in a hot tub. I'm doing something easier this weekend, I'm just running another half marathon. That will be a piece of cake in comparison.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.


If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!
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ATP 4 Vitality

Would Little have time for this type of cardio?


https://www.sciencedaily.com/...90118110833.htm
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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Would Little have time for this type of cardio?


https://www.sciencedaily.com/...833.htm


Everybody should. I rarely ever take the elevator at work. I go up and down many flights of step at work daily. Usually 2 steps at a time lol. Its not planned, just something I've always done. I tend to walk briskly at work all day. Again, not planned, just how I walk.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.
Im very interested in what you think.
In fact it was this (your thread} that that brought me out from lurking.
Used to like you input on BBS too, and said so on that site.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.

I am interested, hence why i stopped lurking/

Liked your input on BBS too.
we used to agree over there.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.


Incorrect about what?

If you have a beef, state what it is.
I am not interested in HIT rhetoric on cardio.



I am interested, hence why i stopped lurking/

Liked your input on BBS too.
we used to agree over there.


Your point?
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.





















For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?























































































































































I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.

Incorrect about what?

If you have a beef, state what it is.
I am not interested in HIT rhetoric on cardio.



I am interested, hence why i stopped lurking/

Liked your input on BBS too.
we used to agree over there.


Your point?


you are incorrect if you think im not interested in what you SAY

My point is i agreed with you on BBS
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.

Incorrect about what?

If you have a beef, state what it is.
I am not interested in HIT rhetoric on cardio.



I am interested, hence why i stopped lurking/

Liked your input on BBS too.
we used to agree over there.


Your point?


my point is that historically i like and agree with your views.
please ignore the b.s comment, it was just used in a lazy repounse, whereas i should of said something like i believe the/any studies {arterial stiffening/lifting} needed context and maybe flawed etc etc
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H wrote:

i just want ATP/Marc to quantity the point he made.
How was it ascertained.
What study, what subjects {age range}, how long {duration of study} , were all the subjects office workers, manuel workers or a miX etc etc
How was this "arterial stiffening" conclusion derived.


For the record i think its B.S, and largely depends on context and genes.

If that is what you think, why the interest in what I say?

I doubt I will change any HIT minds on cardio.

Think what you may, and own it.

The information on this subject is free for the taking, so look it up for yourself, or just go back to lurking. You seem to want to argue. No thanks!


incorrect Marc.

Incorrect about what?

If you have a beef, state what it is.
I am not interested in HIT rhetoric on cardio.



I am interested, hence why i stopped lurking/

Liked your input on BBS too.
we used to agree over there.


Your point?


my point is mostly i agree with you.
please ignore the b.s comment, that was lazy. i just simply at this point feel the studies {lifting/arterial stiffening} are potentially flawed.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Chris H:


you are incorrect if you think im not interested in what you SAY

My point is i agreed with you on BBS


And my incomplete viewpoint (at that time) on cardiovascular conditioning was rejected by the biased BBS horde. I was rejected by the BBS leader and banned outright for a fantasy reason. There is no body by SCIENCE as envisioned by their Messiah of fake fitness, just unchallenged paradigms that MUST be glorified by his followers ... no thank you. Little is much the same ... all roads lead to Rome ... no need to Max - Anything.

It only takes a few months of a Big 3 or a Big 2 done weekly to find out later (much to a trainee dismay) that the cardiovascular conditioning (wind) decreases dramatically. Weight training performed any style you want is a poor cardiovascular conditioning agent. You will not see any science against proper cardiovascular conditioning, because what studies ( and this has been well documented) that exist overwhelmingly show the vast benefits of such exercise. Experience shows the same. Competition shows the same. Little/BBS/HIT is just wrong on cardio.

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1958

Texas, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H:


you are incorrect if you think im not interested in what you SAY

My point is i agreed with you on BBS

And my incomplete viewpoint (at that time) on cardiovascular conditioning was rejected by the biased BBS horde. I was rejected by the BBS leader and banned outright for a fantasy reason. There is no body by SCIENCE as envisioned by their Messiah of fake fitness, just unchallenged paradigms that MUST be glorified by his followers ... no thank you. Little is much the same ... all roads lead to Rome ... no need to Max - Anything.

It only takes a few months of a Big 3 or a Big 2 done weekly to find out later (much to a trainee dismay) that the cardiovascular conditioning (wind) decreases dramatically. Weight training performed any style you want is a poor cardiovascular conditioning agent. You will not see any science against proper cardiovascular conditioning, because what studies ( and this has been well documented) that exist overwhelmingly show the vast benefits of such exercise. Experience shows the same. Competition shows the same. Little/BBS/HIT is just wrong on cardio.



Wow,Marcph! The chip on your shoulder left there by McGuff is huge and laughable.I guess it really hurt your feelings when he questioned you about your inability to shovel snow even though your highly "conditioned." We all await pictures of you 22" neck.
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ATP 4 Vitality

I like my status as the most disliked of all posters

History shows I was right to call out BBS.

Renex learned the hard way also.

Is that laughter you hear?
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ptcrusader

Marc: Speaking only for myself, I would not perceive you to be "the most hated or disliked poster" on BBS or here. What you in essence advocated for a few years ago was a mixture of strength training and cardiovascular training. It was an unpopular thesis even if it was consistent with common sense. Most people want the magic pill, the easiest solution, for a complex topic, health.

BBS offered a relatively efficient methodology to tone muscle, lose weight, and have some improvement in energy level. By avoiding valsalva maneuver and engaging in other activities in the time you no longer have to spend in the gym, one improves health. For those like McDuff that were doing heavy BMX bike riding on non-weight lifting days, cardiovascular health likely did not suffer and may have improved. Similarly, for those doing nothing before BBS (true couch potatoes), once a week workouts may have improved their overall health.

However, for those that gave up aerobic exercise and just weight trained BBS style, cardiovascular health likely suffered. Some may say that is due to arterial stiffening whereas others may claim its just cardiovascular deconditioning. Most physicians that I know think you need both cardiovascular exercise adn strength training exercise to slow down the aging process.

So in my opinion, BBS was not completely right or wrong. My take on your posts back on the other board is that was the general message that you were trying to convey but that it got lost in the arguing and name calling. Just my view...
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Average Al

Marc: Regarding your status as most hated poster...

Having followed your comments on BBS, here, and Corporate Warrior, I believe that the poor reception you sometimes get is more a consequence of the style and tone of your posts, than the content. IMO, you are over-zealous in promoting your idea of the truth, and become a disruptive presence in so far as the board owner is concerned. These people are under no obligation to pay for a website and forum so that you can vent about your favorite issues.

If you really feel that strongly about these issues, start your own web site, publish your own fitness book, run your own discussion forum, attract your own audience.

Personally speaking, I do not always agree with McGuff, and I have stated some disagreements here and elsewhere. But I also find that I need to constantly remind myself that it is much easier to be an anonymous critic picking apart other peoples work, than it is to publish opinions and ideas under one's own name, for everyone else to pick apart.


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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Chris H:


you are incorrect if you think im not interested in what you SAY

My point is i agreed with you on BBS

And my incomplete viewpoint (at that time) on cardiovascular conditioning was rejected by the biased BBS horde. I was rejected by the BBS leader and banned outright for a fantasy reason. There is no body by SCIENCE as envisioned by their Messiah of fake fitness, just unchallenged paradigms that MUST be glorified by his followers ... no thank you. Little is much the same ... all roads lead to Rome ... no need to Max - Anything.

It only takes a few months of a Big 3 or a Big 2 done weekly to find out later (much to a trainee dismay) that the cardiovascular conditioning (wind) decreases dramatically. Weight training performed any style you want is a poor cardiovascular conditioning agent. You will not see any science against proper cardiovascular conditioning, because what studies ( and this has been well documented) that exist overwhelmingly show the vast benefits of such exercise. Experience shows the same. Competition shows the same. Little/BBS/HIT is just wrong on cardio.



when saying i agreed with you on BBS, again its a general statement.
Been a while, but i remember you talking about negatives, isometrics, neck work,band work and even diet {fermented foods i think}.
Also like others im not for or against McGuff.
But i feel he did not like anyone contesting his business idea,which i found rather surprisingly if indeed he believed in the Science so so speak.
I myself voiced concerns about the superiority of the 10/10 protocol, particularly after Trentine semed to take over the blog for a while. McGuff did not like my posts for that, for sure.

Anyway i hope this clarifies im not a Marc hater,so can you indulge me on arterial stiffening in context of lifting, and physical labours generally

Woud be apreciated
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epdavis7

I hate continuting this topic, but my two cents. If you were doing nothing before, BBS will improve your health (along with eating cleaner). As a result of that you will become more active naturally. I ran another Half Marathon this past Saturday. Would BBS enable me to do that? Nope, but neither would HIT as prescribed on this website. I would actually have to go out and run. Would running make me be able to go out and swim several miles? Nope. Duh. What BBS has taught me is you don't need to do alot. I run once a week for about 8-10 miles at a quicker than Half Marathon pace. At 53, 6'4" and 210lbs I finish a Half Marathon right at 2 hrs. World class? Heck no, but I feel great afterwards and after getting a bite to eat I went out and cut my grass and walked my dogs. Conversely, I could bury the younger, faster, runners in a metcon BBS style workout. If you did BBS and walked a bit and had other healthy lifestyle factors you would be as healthy as you would need to be. This will not make you a world class athlete, nor was it ever intended to. Is exercise period of any kind necessary for health if you have an active lifestyle? I don't think it is if you have all the other health parameters in check ie diet, sleep, stress management, healthy relationships etc.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
Marc: Regarding your status as most hated poster...

Having followed your comments on BBS, here, and Corporate Warrior, I believe that the poor reception you sometimes get is more a consequence of the style and tone of your posts, than the content. IMO, you are over-zealous in promoting your idea of the truth, and become a disruptive presence in so far as the board owner is concerned. These people are under no obligation to pay for a website and forum so that you can vent about your favorite issues.

If you really feel that strongly about these issues, start your own web site, publish your own fitness book, run your own discussion forum, attract your own audience.

Personally speaking, I do not always agree with McGuff, and I have stated some disagreements here and elsewhere. But I also find that I need to constantly remind myself that it is much easier to be an anonymous critic picking apart other peoples work, than it is to publish opinions and ideas under one's own name, for everyone else to pick apart.




@Al

I appreciate your opinion. Opinions vary!

I support truth. I reject all else. I support logic. False reasoning is unproductive. These very views limit choices leading to anger. It has always been that way.
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epdavis7

I'm doing the Tough Mudder June 1st (10 miles - 25 obstacles). One BBS style workout and one run a week will be more than enough for me to handle this comfortably. Walking my dogs twice daily, 2-3 self defense training sessions and all the physical labor of maintaining a large property and a large raised bed garden is just additional activity I do and helps build heat/humidity acclimation. I was the only one on my team that was able to complete the "Funky Monkey" which was a huge and long A frame monkey bar over a huge mud pit. All the rest of my team members trained more traditionally and with a lot more strength and cardiovascular conditioning volume. My secret sauce was hanging from a chin bar for time while using the Fat Gripz Extreme. Hanging on to regular size bars was a piece of cake in comparison. I would do that once a week at the end of my workout.
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ATP 4 Vitality

ptcrusader wrote:
Marc: Speaking only for myself, I would not perceive you to be "the most hated or disliked poster" on BBS or here. What you in essence advocated for a few years ago was a mixture of strength training and cardiovascular training. It was an unpopular thesis even if it was consistent with common sense. Most people want the magic pill, the easiest solution, for a complex topic, health.

BBS offered a relatively efficient methodology to tone muscle, lose weight, and have some improvement in energy level. By avoiding valsalva maneuver and engaging in other activities in the time you no longer have to spend in the gym, one improves health. For those like McDuff that were doing heavy BMX bike riding on non-weight lifting days, cardiovascular health likely did not suffer and may have improved. Similarly, for those doing nothing before BBS (true couch potatoes), once a week workouts may have improved their overall health.

However, for those that gave up aerobic exercise and just weight trained BBS style, cardiovascular health likely suffered. Some may say that is due to arterial stiffening whereas others may claim its just cardiovascular deconditioning. Most physicians that I know think you need both cardiovascular exercise adn strength training exercise to slow down the aging process.

So in my opinion, BBS was not completely right or wrong. My take on your posts back on the other board is that was the general message that you were trying to convey but that it got lost in the arguing and name calling. Just my view...


@crusader,

Lovely post. I appreciate your opinion and Al viewpoints on where and why my message could be improved.

You must realize that - not completely right or wrong - is just - wrong.

For the record, when I added just a small amount of cardio to my then - BBS type - workout at the time of my disagreements with the good Dr., I immediately felt my wind and endurance improve.

The good Dr got his twisted propensity to avoid cardio from Ken Hutchins who has yet to give scientific reasons for avoiding steady state cardio.
Arthur Jones viewpoints seemed to be a gathering of bodybuilding myths on aerobics, as we recall Vince Gironda did no aerobics. Bodybuilders have always eschewed science and may have the record for return of investment on the time they waste in the pursuit of false health.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
ptcrusader wrote:
Marc: Speaking only for myself, I would not perceive you to be "the most hated or disliked poster" on BBS or here. What you in essence advocated for a few years ago was a mixture of strength training and cardiovascular training. It was an unpopular thesis even if it was consistent with common sense. Most people want the magic pill, the easiest solution, for a complex topic, health.

BBS offered a relatively efficient methodology to tone muscle, lose weight, and have some improvement in energy level. By avoiding valsalva maneuver and engaging in other activities in the time you no longer have to spend in the gym, one improves health. For those like McDuff that were doing heavy BMX bike riding on non-weight lifting days, cardiovascular health likely did not suffer and may have improved. Similarly, for those doing nothing before BBS (true couch potatoes), once a week workouts may have improved their overall health.

However, for those that gave up aerobic exercise and just weight trained BBS style, cardiovascular health likely suffered. Some may say that is due to arterial stiffening whereas others may claim its just cardiovascular deconditioning. Most physicians that I know think you need both cardiovascular exercise adn strength training exercise to slow down the aging process.

So in my opinion, BBS was not completely right or wrong. My take on your posts back on the other board is that was the general message that you were trying to convey but that it got lost in the arguing and name calling. Just my view...


@crusader,

Lovely post. I appreciate your opinion and Al viewpoints on where and why my message could be improved.

You must realize that - not completely right or wrong - is just - wrong.

For the record, when I added just a small amount of cardio to my then - BBS type - workout at the time of my disagreements with the good Dr., I immediately felt my wind and endurance improve.

The good Dr got his twisted propensity to avoid cardio from Ken Hutchins who has yet to give scientific reasons for avoiding steady state cardio.
Arthur Jones viewpoints seemed to be a gathering of bodybuilding myths on aerobics, as we recall Vince Gironda did no aerobics. Bodybuilders have always eschewed science and may have the record for return of investment on the time they waste in the pursuit of false health.


Vince Gironda did some bike riding
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Resultsbased

Serious Question:

How is weight training a poor CV conditioning agent?

I can see certain methods being poor, but that seems like a broad statement.

Have you ever squatted a substantial weight for 30 or more repetitions?

Do you recall the old style Nautilus circuit that caused people to fail BECAUSE of the CV conditioning or lack thereof?

BTW - I am not anti cardio, I just don't see how certain types of weight training aren't effective at developing the CV system.
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epdavis7

Resultsbased wrote:
Serious Question:

How is weight training a poor CV conditioning agent?

I can see certain methods being poor, but that seems like a broad statement.

Have you ever squatted a substantial weight for 30 or more repetitions?

Do you recall the old style Nautilus circuit that caused people to fail BECAUSE of the CV conditioning or lack thereof?

BTW - I am not anti cardio, I just don't see how certain types of weight training aren't effective at developing the CV system.


Agreed. In a different way a Big 5 done to failure is harder to ME than running a half marathon. I am smoked and need carpet time. I?m tired and breathing heavy at the end of a race, but I?m walking around drinking water. I?m not laid out.
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epdavis7

About 20 years ago did the 20 rep squat routine for six months straight and blew my military PT test out of the water. I did just enough running to maintain the skill of running/pacing/breathing etc. for a timed shorter distance run. I felt like I could walk through brick walls lol. I got burnt out on it mentally though trying to hit 20 reps all the time.
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epdavis7

About 20 years ago did the 20 rep squat routine for six months straight and blew my military PT test out of the water. I did just enough running to maintain the skill of running/pacing/breathing etc. for a timed shorter distance run. I felt like I could walk through brick walls lol. I got burnt out on it mentally though trying to hit 20 reps all the time.
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