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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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Chris H

epdavis7 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
Yea I?ve found not eating anything after dinner helps with losing weight. It?s not always easy to do especially when the wife brings out an evening snack when guests are over. Takes a ton of will power which I don?t always have.

do you have any studies on willpower after dinner scenarios...lol, lol, lol

==Scott==
Last night I "studied" the carton of black rasberry ice cream in the freezer and opted not to eat some, ha ha!

I had a terrible craving last night and wanted some potato chips. Instead I had a handful of almonds and a dill pickle. I don't keep junk food in the house and if I want it I have to go out and get it and eat it immediately. Its the only thing that works for me. If its within grasp it makes it too easy. If I really want ice cream I go to Dairy Queen and eat it there. I just cant keep junk food in the house and easily accessible.


thats me too.
normally i'm good, but when i get a craving, if its in the house i'll eat it, and if theirs a lot of what i crave in the house, particularly chocolate ill eat the lot.
Ill bug my wife like a naughty 230 pound child until she reveals where the treats are hidden - lol.
Currently 10 days low carb so i can eat what i want on hols next week {works for me} and i've asked the wife not to buy treats, or not to give in to my begging if the craving starts to win.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
Yea I?ve found not eating anything after dinner helps with losing weight. It?s not always easy to do especially when the wife brings out an evening snack when guests are over. Takes a ton of will power which I don?t always have.

do you have any studies on willpower after dinner scenarios...lol, lol, lol

==Scott==
Last night I "studied" the carton of black rasberry ice cream in the freezer and opted not to eat some, ha ha!

I had a terrible craving last night and wanted some potato chips. Instead I had a handful of almonds and a dill pickle. I don't keep junk food in the house and if I want it I have to go out and get it and eat it immediately. Its the only thing that works for me. If its within grasp it makes it too easy. If I really want ice cream I go to Dairy Queen and eat it there. I just cant keep junk food in the house and easily accessible.


that's what I always tell people....don't buy it and you won't eat it
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
Yea I?ve found not eating anything after dinner helps with losing weight. It?s not always easy to do especially when the wife brings out an evening snack when guests are over. Takes a ton of will power which I don?t always have.

do you have any studies on willpower after dinner scenarios...lol, lol, lol

==Scott==
Last night I "studied" the carton of black rasberry ice cream in the freezer and opted not to eat some, ha ha!

Have you ever tried the all-natural Turkeyhill ice cream with vanilla/choc/rasberry? That and butter pecan by Haagen-Dazs are my biggest weakness. LOL


==Scott==
My favorite Turkey hill ice cream is their mint chip. It's one of the few with tiny flakes of chocolate. I know all this talk of junk food like ice cream is contradictory to bodybuilding and losing weight but my philosophy is to not eliminate all these good tasting junk foods but to eat them in moderation. If I was to cut out all junk completely I'd just dwell on having some until it drove me crazy.If I just eat it sparingly I can think oh tomorrow I can have some of that and the urge today goes away.Also I think it's important to know when eating some good tasting junk will really make you happy vrs just sitting at your desk and shoveling in junk as you type out report after report, that doesn't really satisfy you.Life is just to short to just eat cottage cheese and celery, ha ha.
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Crotalus

I'm lucky as far as cravings go I guess because my favorite thing above everything else is watermelon. I eat 4-5 of them a week.

If I don't see two large Glad containers of cut up watermelon my refrigerator I'm like a smoker running out of cigarettes.

Now I'm sure some of the 'Study Collectors' here can provide five of six 'studies' proving the detrimental results of consuming watermelon, but I'll still eat as much as I want.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
I do not need to argue that cardiovascular conditioning is very beneficial and resistance training can not and does not provide these unique benefits.

But there is evidence that resistance training does provide some level of cardiovascular conditioning. It isn't an all or nothing situation.

Cardio can provide some unique benefits, but the details of how you do it matter very much:

Here are 4 kinds of cardio:
- walking for several miles at an easy pace, perhaps hitting 30% VO2 Max
- running for many miles at 70% of VO2 max.
- 4 minute intervals with 3 minute rest periods, where you reach 90% of VO2 max during the work periods.
- Tabata: 8 rounds of 20 seconds work/10 seconds rest, reaching 175% of VO2 max (there is a significant anaerobic component).

It is pretty obvious from the literature that these different modes of cardio can have quite different impacts on the body. They are not all equally good, nor do they all provide the same unique benefits.



A reason for differing cardiovascular conditioning results reside in the unique anatomical physiological differences between red (slow) and white (fast) twitch muscle fibers.

It does not take much imagination to realize most day to day activities use slow twitch fibers. The slow twitch fibers burn mostly fat , and the fat located near the fibers. The aerobic energy provides by far the most ATP energy, so feeling good resides here.

Seems foolish to spend so much energy building fast twitch when so much benefit can be had with building the aerobic system by way of slow twitch fibers.
This is by no means denigrating resistance training which is also beneficial, but gets plenty of glamorous attention.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Crotalus wrote:
I'm lucky as far as cravings go I guess because my favorite thing above everything else is watermelon. I eat 4-5 of them a week.

If I don't see two large Glad containers of cut up watermelon my refrigerator I'm like a smoker running out of cigarettes.

Now I'm sure some of the 'Study Collectors' here can provide five of six 'studies' proving the detrimental results of consuming watermelon, but I'll still eat as much as I want.


==Scott==
Really good watermelon pickles can be made from watermelon rind. I love eating those with liver. It makes a great combination!
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HeavyHitter32

entsminger wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
Yea I?ve found not eating anything after dinner helps with losing weight. It?s not always easy to do especially when the wife brings out an evening snack when guests are over. Takes a ton of will power which I don?t always have.

do you have any studies on willpower after dinner scenarios...lol, lol, lol

==Scott==
Last night I "studied" the carton of black rasberry ice cream in the freezer and opted not to eat some, ha ha!

Have you ever tried the all-natural Turkeyhill ice cream with vanilla/choc/rasberry? That and butter pecan by Haagen-Dazs are my biggest weakness. LOL

==Scott==
My favorite Turkey hill ice cream is their mint chip. It's one of the few with tiny flakes of chocolate. I know all this talk of junk food like ice cream is contradictory to bodybuilding and losing weight but my philosophy is to not eliminate all these good tasting junk foods but to eat them in moderation. If I was to cut out all junk completely I'd just dwell on having some until it drove me crazy.If I just eat it sparingly I can think oh tomorrow I can have some of that and the urge today goes away.Also I think it's important to know when eating some good tasting junk will really make you happy vrs just sitting at your desk and shoveling in junk as you type out report after report, that doesn't really satisfy you.Life is just to short to just eat cottage cheese and celery, ha ha.


I eat it 1-2 times a week. Everything else I consume is pretty clean.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Isometrics, Static Contraction, SuperSlow, Max Contraction, and others of such ilk, have thought of physical activity as injurious to joints. A few studies have found just the opposite, with the risk of osteoarthritis going down the more active you are.


When you read authors state dynamic resistance exercise causes excessive joint wear, especially multiple sets, all the while promoting a very slow or stop resistance training, BEWARE!

Empirical evidence abounds that movement decrease stiff joints. At normal walking speeds, the knee joint is lubricated with synovial fluid being pushed into the cartilages. No one walks SuperSlow, and certainly static walking is just standing still! Looks like the old timers knew best.

Movement at regular speeds is joint preserving!

https://www.insidescience.org/...bricated-joints




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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

It does not take much imagination to realize most day to day activities use slow twitch fibers. The slow twitch fibers burn mostly fat , and the fat located near the fibers. The aerobic energy provides by far the most ATP energy, so feeling good resides here.

Seems foolish to spend so much energy building fast twitch when so much benefit can be had with building the aerobic system by way of slow twitch fibers.
This is by no means denigrating resistance training which is also beneficial, but gets plenty of glamorous attention.


But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?

Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

It does not take much imagination to realize most day to day activities use slow twitch fibers. The slow twitch fibers burn mostly fat , and the fat located near the fibers. The aerobic energy provides by far the most ATP energy, so feeling good resides here.

Seems foolish to spend so much energy building fast twitch when so much benefit can be had with building the aerobic system by way of slow twitch fibers.
This is by no means denigrating resistance training which is also beneficial, but gets plenty of glamorous attention.


But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?


Actually, both suffer. The fast twitch decline, so strength suffers along with glycogen storage sites leading to greater incidence of type 2 diabetes.

Slow twitch equally suffers due to mitochondrial decrease in function, power and number. This is why the elderly lack balance and are inactive due to slow twitch decline.



Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.



True, but no more so than slow twitch. The feel good part lies within the slow twitch domain. HIT does a poor job training the endurance side of anatomical physiology .
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?

Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.

==Scott==
I've never seen such an obsession with fast and slow twitch fibers and all this neurological crap as I see on here.When you get old things get harder to do because everything starts to wear out, not just some stupid fibers in your muscles.Your whole body works as a team and when one aspect of it breaks down the rest of it suffers. It ain't gonna help to go out and work those fibers one way or another if you don't take care of every other aspect of your body, heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, bones, muscles etc etc..
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:


Slow twitch equally suffers due to mitochondrial decrease in function, power and number. This is why the elderly lack balance and are inactive due to slow twitch decline.




Most of the papers I've seen suggest that losses of slow twitch fiber are much less, and much less consequential.

Balance issues can be caused by an overall loss in muscle strength. But I've never seen balance issues specifically associate with a decline in slow twitch fibers. Do you have any references or links?

What is the causal link between slow twitch decline and inactivity?

If you want to argue that people who are deconditioned become less active, and then enter a downward spiral where inactivity leads to further deconditioning I agree. The cure is activity - movement is life.



True, but no more so than slow twitch. The feel good part lies within the slow twitch domain. HIT does a poor job training the endurance side of anatomical physiology .


Slow twitch fibers specifically associated with "feeling good"? I'm skeptical.

As for HIT: By itself, it is not optimal for producing a high level of endurance. But how much endurance is necessary to be healthy in old age? Does a couple sessions a week of HIT get you to the minimum threshold of endurance needed to age well? I don't know what the minimum threshold is, and you probably don't either.

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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?

Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.

==Scott==
I've never seen such an obsession with fast and slow twitch fibers and all this neurological crap as I see on here.



Nice to see such a disdain for science. You remind me of OBS, old butt stupid. Scott, fyi, with knowledge come power.



When you get old things get harder to do because everything starts to wear out, not just some stupid fibers in your muscles.Your whole body works as a team and when one aspect of it breaks down the rest of it suffers. It ain't gonna help to go out and work those fibers one way or another if you don't take care of every other aspect of your body, heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, bones, muscles etc etc..


Smartest thing you have ever written here! FYI, fibers contain no stupidity! They produce force to accomplish work!
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?

Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.

==Scott==
I've never seen such an obsession with fast and slow twitch fibers and all this neurological crap as I see on here.When you get old things get harder to do because everything starts to wear out, not just some stupid fibers in your muscles.Your whole body works as a team and when one aspect of it breaks down the rest of it suffers. It ain't gonna help to go out and work those fibers one way or another if you don't take care of every other aspect of your body, heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, bones, muscles etc etc..


what you said is exactly what I was thinking
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oldbutsteady

ATPdumb,

Keep pulling out your certified trainer book for information and writing about things you don't understand.

Has any of this "science" made you a better weight trainer?

You're nothing but a know-it-all in a small fish bowl sized forum pretending to have all the answers.

If you want to get personal I'm in...

OBS
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Average Al

entsminger wrote:
But isn't it the case that the decline in your ability to function as you age is more strongly associated with loss of fast twitch fiber?

Having big muscles may be oversold to the young. Avoiding the use of a walker or wheel chair when old is not so glamorous, but very important.

==Scott==
I've never seen such an obsession with fast and slow twitch fibers and all this neurological crap as I see on here.When you get old things get harder to do because everything starts to wear out, not just some stupid fibers in your muscles.Your whole body works as a team and when one aspect of it breaks down the rest of it suffers. It ain't gonna help to go out and work those fibers one way or another if you don't take care of every other aspect of your body, heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, bones, muscles etc etc..


If you don't find it interesting, you can certainly skip over that stuff. You will always have Grant's posts to keep you entertained and informed.


Personally, I've always liked understanding how things work, why things are the way they are. That is probably why I got a PhD in a technical field (engineering) and ended up working in R&D. Different strokes for different folks.





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oldbutsteady

ATPdumb,

What color Lycra shorts do you wear when you train at Planet Fitness?

I bet they're pink...go girls!!!

OBS
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Personally, I've always liked understanding how things work, why things are the way they are. That is probably why I got a PhD in a technical field (engineering

==Scott==
I hope you aren't hoping to find PHD quality answers to your questions on here, ha ha. I like knowing how things work as much if not more than the next guy but I wouldn't go to the local bar or a muscle head exercise forum to find out those answers especially stuff about the inner workings of muscle tissue etc etc.My rant wasn't directed at you as it is at so many others on here. I just think people on here get to caught up in the muscle minutia when trying to figure out what routine to do, oh will this set of curls work the fast twitch more? There's only so many ways one can curl a weight, fast, slow, few or many reps, etc. I think they need to just stop over analyzing this stuff and as Arnold would say, "Just do it!"
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
Personally, I've always liked understanding how things work, why things are the way they are. That is probably why I got a PhD in a technical field (engineering

==Scott==
I hope you aren't hoping to find PHD quality answers to your questions on here, ha ha. I like knowing how things work as much if not more than the next guy but I wouldn't go to the local bar or a muscle head exercise forum to find out those answers especially stuff about the inner workings of muscle tissue etc etc.My rant wasn't directed at you as it is at so many others on here. I just think people on here get to caught up in the muscle minutia when trying to figure out what routine to do, oh will this set of curls work the fast twitch more? There's only so many ways one can curl a weight, fast, slow, few or many reps, etc. I think they need to just stop over analyzing this stuff and as Arnold would say, "Just do it!"


paralysis by analysis
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epdavis7

I don't know if it counts as cardio or strength training, but I had 4 tons of river rock delivered to my driveway for a firepit. I had to shovel it into a wheelbarrow and push it all the way across the yard and unload into where my firepit is going. I did it in the high heat and humidity and it kicked my butt. My abs, lower back, traps, and hands are incredibly sore today lol. It took me over 3 hours working non-stop except for a drink of water and handful of raisins now and again.
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
I do not need to argue that cardiovascular conditioning is very beneficial and resistance training can not and does not provide these unique benefits.

But there is evidence that resistance training does provide some level of cardiovascular conditioning. It isn't an all or nothing situation.

Cardio can provide some unique benefits, but the details of how you do it matter very much:

Here are 4 kinds of cardio:
- walking for several miles at an easy pace, perhaps hitting 30% VO2 Max
- running for many miles at 70% of VO2 max.
- 4 minute intervals with 3 minute rest periods, where you reach 90% of VO2 max during the work periods.
- Tabata: 8 rounds of 20 seconds work/10 seconds rest, reaching 175% of VO2 max (there is a significant anaerobic component).

It is pretty obvious from the literature that these different modes of cardio can have quite different impacts on the body. They are not all equally good, nor do they all provide the same unique benefits.



A reason for differing cardiovascular conditioning results reside in the unique anatomical physiological differences between red (slow) and white (fast) twitch muscle fibers.

It does not take much imagination to realize most day to day activities use slow twitch fibers. The slow twitch fibers burn mostly fat , and the fat located near the fibers. The aerobic energy provides by far the most ATP energy, so feeling good resides here.

Seems foolish to spend so much energy building fast twitch when so much benefit can be had with building the aerobic system by way of slow twitch fibers.
This is by no means denigrating resistance training which is also beneficial, but gets plenty of glamorous attention.


interesting, but this does not make JL wrong on cardio, if anything it reinforces his views on doing the least to get the most overall benefit.

Or is is and McGuffs position of fibers recruitment wrong ?
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Chris H

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Isometrics, Static Contraction, SuperSlow, Max Contraction, and others of such ilk, have thought of physical activity as injurious to joints. A few studies have found just the opposite, with the risk of osteoarthritis going down the more active you are.


When you read authors state dynamic resistance exercise causes excessive joint wear, especially multiple sets, all the while promoting a very slow or stop resistance training, BEWARE!

Empirical evidence abounds that movement decrease stiff joints. At normal walking speeds, the knee joint is lubricated with synovial fluid being pushed into the cartilages. No one walks SuperSlow, and certainly static walking is just standing still! Looks like the old timers knew best.

Movement at regular speeds is joint preserving!

https://www.insidescience.org/...bricated-joints






again interesting, but not conclusive, limited studies and application from which the conclusion was drawn.

Maybe iso's and a little walking to be sure - huh1
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DuzHIT

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

At normal walking speeds, the knee joint is lubricated with synovial fluid being pushed into the joints. Looks like the old timers knew best.

Movement at regular speeds is joint preserving!



I am not positive, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think normal walking speeds and movement at regular speeds would be considered cardio conditioning. It would be considered as walking and movement.

I am pretty sure Little was not advocating catatonic living.

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Chris H

DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

At normal walking speeds, the knee joint is lubricated with synovial fluid being pushed into the joints. Looks like the old timers knew best.

Movement at regular speeds is joint preserving!



I am not positive, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think normal walking speeds and movement at regular speeds would be considered cardio conditioning. It would be considered as walking and movement.

I am pretty sure Little was not advocating catatonic living.



lol - love a catatonic part.

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Average Al

epdavis7 wrote:
I don't know if it counts as cardio or strength training, but I had 4 tons of river rock delivered to my driveway for a firepit. I had to shovel it into a wheelbarrow and push it all the way across the yard and unload into where my firepit is going. I did it in the high heat and humidity and it kicked my butt. My abs, lower back, traps, and hands are incredibly sore today lol. It took me over 3 hours working non-stop except for a drink of water and handful of raisins now and again.


Does it matter what you call it? It was necessary, satisfying, and did your body good!

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