MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle


Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle


Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle


Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle


Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat


Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle


Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

 
 

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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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Equity

epdavis7 wrote:
All other things being equal, a short, fat guy who smokes and lift weights will be much better at pulling G forces in the cockpit of a jet than a tall lanky marathon runner.


Jason Blaha was a renowned F-14 pilot back in the day, as well as a C.I.A. trained 'mercenary'. Sounds like youre describing him lol!!!

Seriously though; you're probably right. Horses for courses as they say.

Regards.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
All other things being equal, a short, fat guy who smokes and lift weights will be much better at pulling G forces in the cockpit of a jet than a tall lanky marathon runner.


== Scott ==
Or better yet a guy who smokes and drinks and ate nothing but junk food but dug ditches for a living will out perform the best of us when in a pinch!!
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epdavis7

entsminger wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
All other things being equal, a short, fat guy who smokes and lift weights will be much better at pulling G forces in the cockpit of a jet than a tall lanky marathon runner.

== Scott ==
Or better yet a guy who smokes and drinks and ate nothing but junk food but dug ditches for a living will out perform the best of us when in a pinch!!


Very true Scott. Seriously though, they do not recommend lots of aerobic activity for fighter pilots.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

epdavis7 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
All other things being equal, a short, fat guy who smokes and lift weights will be much better at pulling G forces in the cockpit of a jet than a tall lanky marathon runner.

== Scott ==
Or better yet a guy who smokes and drinks and ate nothing but junk food but dug ditches for a living will out perform the best of us when in a pinch!!

Very true Scott. Seriously though, they do not recommend lots of aerobic activity for fighter pilots.


==Scott==
For fighter pilots I think they have them work underneath a car on jacks and then pull out the jacks so they can get used to G force, ha ha.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Just ran across the latest stupid moronic post from a seasoned HIT trainer who claims to be interested in cardio. Remember, a claim is just that, a claim. Intellectual dishonesty is run amuck at Discover Strength. John Little, Doug McGuff, and Luke Carlson can now all be grouped together as portrayers of disingenuous cardiovascular conditioning fitness information. Shame on you!

This latest moronic post come from Discover Strength and Luke Carlson.

https://www.discoverstrength.c...

Here is where stupidity meets paper. One person eats McDonald?s food and strength trains twice per week. No controls. No nothing other than this person had quit running. Her bod pod data was claimed to be better. No posted data!

Luke Carlsons unbelievably stupid takeaway,

Quote - Take home message: The research, and Taylors experience, indicate that cardio is not an effective tool for weight loss or body composition improvement. - End quote.

No cardio was done however!
No comparison example was made!

Not to mention that bodybuilders and millions other fitness trainees have been using cardio for fat loss for decades. What research?

Just more intellectual dishonesty!

This is why HIT is unpopular.

Lies, lies and more lies!
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spud

Are you arguing that cardio is necessary for fat loss?

As I sit here and read your post and then write this response, on the left hand side of my screen I can see numerous examples of people losing lots of fat without performing any cardio such as running, cycling, swimming or rowing.

MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle

Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle

Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle

Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat

Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle

Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

There are more examples in the Florida Dreamin' article from 2006. On the first page there are 4 examples with before and after photos - http://www.drdarden.com/...ic.do?id=415445
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
It was mentioned that HIT is unpopular ? How was that determined? Is the statement formed on responses on this forum ? I hate to break the news but this forum is read by a micro sized population of the folks out there who actually do or consider doing HIT and most on here are as partisan to the old HIT ways as are the politicians of today to their parties. You will have to search high and low on here or anywhere else to find an objective opinion on HIT or anything else for that matter.
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oldbutsteady

Spud,

Everyone on the left side of the screen changed their diets (or so I've been told), everybody loses fat on diets.

Everyone using aerobic training loses fat with or without changing their diet, and if you couple a diet with aerobic training you lose even more fat.

Don't misunderstand, weight training burns fat, I'm not arguing that point but a good diet, weight training, and aerobic exercise burns more fat than any one or two of those together.

Synergy.

OBS
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frostyF

Arkansas, USA

Trying to lose fat with aerobic activity is akin to trying to become a millionaire while working a minimum wage job.Yes,it CAN be done,but you'll spend all your valuable time doing aerobic activity.Idiocracy!!!
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oldbutsteady

Agreed, that is why you do all three.

Again, synergy.

OBS
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oldbutsteady

Frosty,

Let me clarify, that may be true for your recreational runners but if you are competitive runner logging serious mileage weekly, you have a hard time keeping weight on your body.

OBS
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

frostyF wrote:
Trying to lose fat with aerobic activity is akin to trying to become a millionaire while working a minimum wage job.Yes,it CAN be done,but you'll spend all your valuable time doing aerobic activity.Idiocracy!!!


== Scott==
I tend to lean to the heavy side , not the skinny side. In past years when I could run ( bad knee now) around 5 miles at least 3 or 4 times a week And maybe a swim or get in a bike ride I could eat just about anything I wanted and feel fairly trim. Not trim as in bodybuilders standards but I hovered around 170 lbs which is pretty good for me. Without the running I generally hover around 190 and to lose weight now I have to eat a whole lot less. I hate eating less and counting calories and all that crap. That?s boob stuff. A co-workers lunch is a bottle of chocolate flavored lose weight slop. I?ll take running and my cardio any day over eating less.
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epdavis7

Another running friend of mine who is a little OCD is on a running streak. His 175th day straight. His next big race is the inaugural Marine Corps 50K. He is not elite by any means, but is a better than middle of the pack age group runner. He has done a 50miler in the past and back in March ran a half marathon and full marathon back to back as a challenge. He is not obese, but is rather chunky and has moobs. His diet is basically eat anything he wants whenever he wants. He does not strength train but does power yoga. He runs more in a week than I do in a month lol. His running partner has a similar build. He carries a flag the whole time which is crazy hard for that distance and still finishes well ahead of much younger flagless runners. It totally defies belief and physics to watch him do his thing and quaff beers and pizza afterwards. It killed me yesterday to walk my dogs and then run 7+ miles. It is crazy hot and humid here.
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ATP 4 Vitality

spud wrote:
Are you arguing that cardio is necessary for fat loss?


I have never argued that! You are simply implying this to change the subject. Even stupid HITers know that during the Holocaust people lost fat by starvation. Cardio was not needed for this.




As I sit here and read your post and then write this response, on the left hand side of my screen I can see numerous examples of people losing lots of fat without performing any cardio such as running, cycling, swimming or rowing.


Need I remind that Dr. Darden recommended 30 minute after meals daily walks.

MB Madaera
Lost 31.7 lbs fat
Built 11.7 lbs muscle

Chris Madaera
Built 9 lbs muscle

Keelan Parham
Lost 30 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

Bob Marchesello
Lost 23.55 lbs fat
Built 8.55 lbs muscle

Jeff Turner
Lost 25.5 lbs fat

Jeanenne Darden
Lost 26 lbs fat
Built 3 lbs muscle

Ted Tucker
Lost 41 lbs fat
Built 4 lbs muscle

There are more examples in the Florida Dreamin' article from 2006. On the first page there are 4 examples with before and after photos -


These folks were extremely active and young.

There are hundreds of thousands of examples of people using restricted calorie diets and cardio to lose fat. HITers are too arrogant to admit this.

On page 73 of Killing Fat , Dr. Ken Spaulding wrote under:

Quote:
Consistency A Must

With Dr. Dardens books, I have found an overall fitness plan that works, and I believe I can follow it for life. Most important, I believe the plan can be adapted for almost anyone. Here are my guidelines.

* weigh yourself regularly
* Discern a trigger weight that prompts a reevaluation and a correction of eating habits (for me, that is 172 pounds)
* adopt an eating plan that allows you to make the correction
* keep your carbohydrates at 50 percent of total calories
* use a high intensity strength training routine twice a week
* Do a cardio-aerobic activity several times a week
* stay well hydrated and rest adequately

Remember: Consistency is the key to getting the fat off and the key to keeping it off.

end quote
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ATP 4 Vitality

This latest moronic anti-cardio comment came recently from an infamous HiTer on www.criticalmas.org


Drew Baye
Jul 16, 2019 - 8:23 am
Most doctors and cardiologists make erroneous assumptions about resistance training and its effect on the heart and vascular system because they do not know how it should be performed. I once argued with a cardiologist who believed it was harmful because of val salvas maneuver. He did not realize that val salvas maneuver can and should be avoided during exercise which eliminates the things he was concerned about.

Also, more recently there was this:

Nonetheless, there is an emerging body of evidence showing that resistance exercise training (RET) appears to be as effective as AET in reducing risk of several chronic diseases.

Mcleod JC, Stokes T and Phillips SM (2019) Resistance Exercise Training as a Primary Countermeasure to Age-Related Chronic Disease. Front. Physiol. 10:645. doi: 10.3389/fphys.2019.00645

https://www.researchgate.net/...Chronic_Disease

***

A lay person saying most doctors and cardiologists make erroneous assumptions reveals an overwhelming quality of arrogance on their part.


Cardiovascular conditioning has been researched very well and the beneficial results of such have been well documented.

Who are you going to believe?

This fool or the experts?
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spud

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...pubmed/10487375

PURPOSE:
The purpose of this study was to examine the physiological effects of a weight-loss dietary regimen with or without exercise.

METHODS:
Thirty-five overweight men were matched and randomly placed into either a control group or one of three dietary groups.

There were 6 men in the control group.
There were 8 men in the diet-only group.
There were 11 men in a diet group that performed aerobic exercise three times per week
There were 10 men in a diet group that performed both aerobic exercise and strength training three times per week

RESULTS:

After 12 weeks:

Diet only group lost 9.64kg (69% was fat = 6.65kg)

Diet and aerobics group lost 8.99kg (78% was fat = 7.01kg)

Diet, aerobics and strength training group lost 9.90kg (97% was fat = 9.60kg)

Aerobics on its own, 3 times a week, whatever format it took, lost an extra 0.36kg of fat over 12 weeks compared to diet accompanied by no exercise at all.

That's less than 1 extra pound of fat lost for all that aerobic training

That said, aerobics seemed to spare an extra 1kg of muscle. It is however blown away by those who also did strength training.

Diet Only = 2.99kg of muscle lost.
Aerobics = 1.98kg of muscle lost.
Aerobics and Strength = 0.3kg of muscle lost.

The diet-only group also demonstrated a significant reduction in fat-free mass, not just muscle, but also bone tissue and organ tissue etc.

Sadly I couldn't find any details on exactly what aerobics or strength training programs these people undertook. I'd be happy to bet that the aerobics was steady state for at least 15 minutes a day, and that the strength training was not as good as it could have been in terms of form and effort.

I would love to see the results of the study if it were conducted again with the addition of a 4th group who did only diet and strength training, but no aerobics. Chances are they would come out on top as they would obtain all the benefits of diet and strength training, but wouldn't have aerobics needlessly eating into their ability to recover from the strength training sessions, meaning they would gain more muscle and strength and possibly lose even more fat.
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spud

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Need I remind that Dr. Darden recommended 30 minute after meals daily walks.


From Ellington Darden:

OTHER IMPORTANT GUIDELINES

Besides adhering to the X-Force Body Eating Plan, there are other things you must do to achieve sustainable fat loss results.

Drink at least one gallon of ice water each day. Abundant water facilitates fat loss because it helps your liver and kidneys become more efficient. Use an insulated water bottle and sip through a straw for best results.

Perform X-Force Body training workouts twice a week. After a routine of heavy eccentric exercise, your fat metabolism can remain elevated for four days and nights. That?s one reason why you will require longer periods of rest and recovery.

Walk moderately for 30 minutes each day after your evening meal. Walking will temporarily burn 25-30% more calories. You may also substitute a bike ride or stationary bike, but do not run as it will deplete your energy.

Get extra rest and sleep! Both will help in losing fat and recovering muscle. Don?t participate in other sports or fitness activities for the duration of your X-Force Body training. Rest as much as you can on your non-exercise days.


======

In my opinion, walking for 30 minutes after meals falls into the same category as superhydration.

It's better to be moderately active rather than sedentary in the same way that it's better to be hydrated rather than dehydrated.

But you don't need to walk after meals or be superhydrated to lose fat effectively.

Diet is most important, closely followed by strength training. After that it's the extra rest and sleep. Superhydration and walking after dinner are the first two things I'd drop because they contribute very little to the equation.

I don't drink a gallon of ice water every day from an insulated water bottle, but I do drink a little over 0.75 gallons a day of moderately cool water from a pint glass. Needing the water to be ice cold is impossible for me.

Where I live, for 50% of the year the weather doesn't make a 30 minute walk after dinner at all appealing, and the fact that for the same 50% of the year it gets dark before I even eat dinner also means that I won't be following this advice. No thanks.

Does this mean that I can only lose weight in the warm weather. Of course not.
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ATP 4 Vitality

spud wrote:

PURPOSE:
The purpose of this study was to examine the physiological effects of a weight-loss dietary regimen with or without exercise.

METHODS:
Thirty-five overweight men were matched and randomly placed into either a control group or one of three dietary groups.

There were 6 men in the control group.
There were 8 men in the diet-only group.
There were 11 men in a diet group that performed aerobic exercise three times per week
There were 10 men in a diet group that performed both aerobic exercise and strength training three times per week

RESULTS:

After 12 weeks:

Diet only group lost 9.64kg (69% was fat = 6.65kg)

Diet and aerobics group lost 8.99kg (78% was fat = 7.01kg)

Diet, aerobics and strength training group lost 9.90kg (97% was fat = 9.60kg)

Aerobics on its own, 3 times a week, whatever format it took, lost an extra 0.36kg of fat over 12 weeks compared to diet accompanied by no exercise at all.

That's less than 1 extra pound of fat lost for all that aerobic training

That said, aerobics seemed to spare an extra 1kg of muscle. It is however blown away by those who also did strength training.

Diet Only = 2.99kg of muscle lost.
Aerobics = 1.98kg of muscle lost.
Aerobics and Strength = 0.3kg of muscle lost.

The diet-only group also demonstrated a significant reduction in fat-free mass, not just muscle, but also bone tissue and organ tissue etc.

Sadly I couldn't find any details on exactly what aerobics or strength training programs these people undertook. I'd be happy to bet that the aerobics was steady state for at least 15 minutes a day, and that the strength training was not as good as it could have been in terms of form and effort.

I would love to see the results of the study if it were conducted again with the addition of a 4th group who did only diet and strength training, but no aerobics. Chances are they would come out on top as they would obtain all the benefits of diet and strength training, but wouldn't have aerobics needlessly eating into their ability to recover from the strength training sessions, meaning they would gain more muscle and strength and possibly lose even more fat.


Moderate aerobics do not eat away into the ability to recover from strength training sessions. This is another lie. Proper ventilatory threshold 1 cardiovascular conditioning enhances recovery.

The data that YOU presented proves that aerobics is a viable and EFFECTIVE method to lose fat. Thus, Luke Carlson lied in his fit tip. One can only gleam this lie was on purpose.

Aerobics will always take more time than strength training due to the very nature of the activity. Cardio is an endurance activity and relies on enhancing the Krebs cycle, something HITers know precious little about.
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ATP 4 Vitality

spud wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Need I remind that Dr. Darden recommended 30 minute after meals daily walks.

From Ellington Darden:

OTHER IMPORTANT GUIDELINES

Besides adhering to the X-Force Body Eating Plan, there are other things you must do to achieve sustainable fat loss results.

Drink at least one gallon of ice water each day. Abundant water facilitates fat loss because it helps your liver and kidneys become more efficient. Use an insulated water bottle and sip through a straw for best results.

Perform X-Force Body training workouts twice a week. After a routine of heavy eccentric exercise, your fat metabolism can remain elevated for four days and nights. That?s one reason why you will require longer periods of rest and recovery.

Walk moderately for 30 minutes each day after your evening meal. Walking will temporarily burn 25-30% more calories. You may also substitute a bike ride or stationary bike, but do not run as it will deplete your energy.

Get extra rest and sleep! Both will help in losing fat and recovering muscle. Don?t participate in other sports or fitness activities for the duration of your X-Force Body training. Rest as much as you can on your non-exercise days.


======

In my opinion, walking for 30 minutes after meals falls into the same category as superhydration.

It's better to be moderately active rather than sedentary in the same way that it's better to be hydrated rather than dehydrated.

But you don't need to walk after meals or be superhydrated to lose fat effectively.

Diet is most important, closely followed by strength training. After that it's the extra rest and sleep. Superhydration and walking after dinner are the first two things I'd drop because they contribute very little to the equation.

I don't drink a gallon of ice water every day from an insulated water bottle, but I do drink a little over 0.75 gallons a day of moderately cool water from a pint glass. Needing the water to be ice cold is impossible for me.

Where I live, for 50% of the year the weather doesn't make a 30 minute walk after dinner at all appealing, and the fact that for the same 50% of the year it gets dark before I even eat dinner also means that I won't be following this advice. No thanks.

Does this mean that I can only lose weight in the warm weather. Of course not.


Your opinion is noted.

Perhaps a more open-minded approach toward incorporating optimal cardiovascular conditioning would lead to better results. But, incorrect 50 year-old biases based on faulty Nautilus/Jonesian paradigms get in the way.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
One of those Tough divers I was talking about earlier with the pushups and all. This guy is built!
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sgb2112

Only Endurance Exercise Slows Down Aging

Running, swimming, cycling and other types of endurance exercise can slow cellular aging, but strength training may not, a new study suggests.

Researchers looked at how different types of exercise affected telomeres in 124 inactive, young, healthy adults.

Telomeres are protective caps on the ends of chromosomes. As you age, telomeres shorten and result in cell ageing. However, an enzyme called telomerase can counteract the shortening process and even add length to the telomeres.

The study participants were randomly assigned to six months of either: endurance training (long sessions of running); high-intensity interval training (high-intensity running alternating with slower running); resistance (weight) training; or no changes in activity (the control group).

Telomerase activity

The participants' telomere length and telomerase activity were assessed at the start of the study, and two to seven days after the final exercise session, according to the authors. The study was published in the European Heart Journal.

"Our main finding is that compared to the start of the study and the control group, in volunteers who did endurance and high-intensity training, telomerase activity and telomere length increased, which are both important for cellular ageing, regenerative capacity and thus, healthy ageing," said study leader Ulrich Laufs, a professor at Leipzig University in Germany. "Interestingly, resistance training did not exert these effects."

Compared to the resistance and control groups, telomerase activity increased two to threefold and telomere length increased significantly in the endurance and high-intensity training groups.

"The study identifies a mechanism by which endurance training ? but not resistance training ? improves healthy ageing. It may help to design future studies on this important topic by using telomere length as indicator of 'biological age' in future intervention studies," Laufs said in a journal news release.

Endurance and high-intensity training could increase telomere length and telomerase activity by affecting levels of nitric oxide in blood vessels, which produces changes in cells, the researchers theorised.

"From an evolutionary perspective, endurance and high-intensity training may mimic the advantageous traveling and fight-or-flight behaviour of our ancestors better than strength training," said study co-author Dr Christian Werner, from Saarland University in Germany.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
One of those Tough divers I was talking about earlier with the pushups and all. This guy is built!


Imagine this, if he quit his cardio, he would recover faster! LOL
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
Another picture of a Navy UDT member from WW2 . You can be sure this guy did a ton of cardio but look at him!
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spud

The guy nearest the camera in the photo above is a physical specimen. The guys further away from the camera, less so.

Cardio or not, how come they don't all look like this guy?

Also, the massive volume of mechanical work that was mentioned earlier in the thread that these divers go through is not solely for the purposes conditioning. It's for selection. It's for the purpose of weeding out those who can't be hammered on excessively, soak up the punishment and keep moving. Survivorship bias. It's no different from the selection training run by the SAS, Navy Seals or Spetsnaz. Hell, it's not different from the beasts we see competing at the CrossFit games compared with the dropouts that blew a rotator cuff or simply couldn't hack it back at Regional qualifiers.

I think a large part of the reason that cardio is still used for weight loss is it's really effective for the first 20 pounds or so (20 if you're big and less if your not as big) and because most people who aren't into strength training to the extent we are don't want to go beyond that, then it's fine as far as they are concerned.

Also, things like "Beachbody" or "Insanity" who's results depend on the diet plan, NEVER ever mention the diet plan in the infomercials. It's always about burning calories, torching fat, feeling great, unlocking your potential, only weeks away from a completely new you. Footage of people sweating, topless, glistening abs, smiles on their faces, wokring out in a large room together doing aerobics and pushups.

There's no way that these adverts are going to stop all the fun and energetic activity for a serious and boring segment on the importance of dietary restraint. It's just not good marketing.

https://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=ZLK28BHJDd8

This is the case with every type of workout too or gadget and every type of program of this ilk.

I note that this video is over 10 years old. Does anyone know what the latest cardio craze is? Or is it simply CrossFit now?
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Just ran across the latest stupid moronic post from a seasoned HIT trainer who claims to be interested in cardio. Remember, a claim is just that, a claim. Intellectual dishonesty is run amuck at Discover Strength. John Little, Doug McGuff, and Luke Carlson can now all be grouped together as portrayers of disingenuous cardiovascular conditioning fitness information. Shame on you!

This latest moronic post come from Discover Strength and Luke Carlson....



I read the link that you posted. I don't think you have accurately represented what he said in the post.

Taylor, the subject of his anecdote, had been training with Discover Strength for 4 years. For most of that time, she just strength trained, did no cardio, and ate 4 or 5 meals a week at McDonald's. During that time period, she lost body fat and gain a small amount of muscle. Then she (allegedly) made one change: for 16 weeks she did cardio in preparation for a marathon. And after training for the marathon, her body composition got worse - more body fat.

So N=1, and she was, in effect her own control (periods of time with and without cardio).

My guess is that the extra cardio bumped her appetite way up, and she spontaneously overcompensated for the extra activity by eating more. Either that, or she became more sedentary when she wasn't formally exercising. Maybe both happened. Both of these kinds of counterproductive adaptations to cardio have been reported in the literature on weight loss and exercise.

IMO, the main purpose of cardio is to improve cardiovascular conditioning. Whether or not you lose weight will depend on how you appetite responds to the additional activity.
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