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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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oldbutsteady

Avg Al,

I think anybody that tries to draw conclusions about any aerobic activity from another person is silly.

One cannot determine what their results will be if they don't actually engage in the activity. If you want to know the possible benefits of aerobic training as part of your overall routine, try some for 6 or 8 weeks and then decide. It seems a simple way to test what is true and what is not.

Many of us engaged in aerobic training have told people the benefits we have received but nobody seems to believe or care. Instead most continue to post third party stories and inconclusive studies as proof we are wrong or fooling ourselves. Don't believe your lying eyes...

OBS
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Average Al

oldbutsteady wrote:
Avg Al,

I think anybody that tries to draw conclusions about any aerobic activity from another person is silly.

One cannot determine what their results will be if they don't actually engage in the activity. If you want to know the possible benefits of aerobic training as part of your overall routine, try some for 6 or 8 weeks and then decide. It seems a simple way to test what is true and what is not.

Many of us engaged in aerobic training have told people the benefits we have received but nobody seems to believe or care. Instead most continue to post third party stories and inconclusive studies as proof we are wrong or fooling ourselves. Don't believe your lying eyes...

OBS


Yah.... Individual variations in response to exercise is the elephant in the room for a lot of these debates. I do enjoy talking about the theory side, but practically speaking, an N=1 experiment will tell you a lot.

That said, there are some benefits to cardio that you might not be able to judge by how you feel. Has doing cardio reduced the stiffness of your large arteries? Maybe that shows up years later, when your blood pressure does not rise as much as it otherwise might have.


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oldbutsteady

Avg Al,

I've never had my arteries checked so I couldn't tell you but in a past job I had to escort people up to the 5th floor of a building using the stairs from time to time.

Most healthy looking people could not walk all the way up without stopping and the fatties were even worse. I didn't do this walk on any sort of regular basis so I can only assume being able to walk all the way up without stopping was due to my aerobic training.

At my current position I sometimes have to walk up 4 flights of stairs for meetings and when I walk with a group it is the same outcome. However, I no longer run. I mostly jump rope and occasionally row. I must assume it is my aerobic conditioning crossing over to my daily activities.

OBS
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epdavis7

Average Al wrote:
I read the link that you posted. I don't think you have accurately represented what he said in the post.

Taylor, the subject of his anecdote, had been training with Discover Strength for 4 years. For most of that time, she just strength trained, did no cardio, and ate 4 or 5 meals a week at McDonald's. During that time period, she lost body fat and gain a small amount of muscle. Then she (allegedly) made one change: for 16 weeks she did cardio in preparation for a marathon. And after training for the marathon, her body composition got worse - more body fat.

So N=1, and she was, in effect her own control (periods of time with and without cardio).

My guess is that the extra cardio bumped her appetite way up, and she spontaneously overcompensated for the extra activity by eating more. Either that, or she became more sedentary when she wasn't formally exercising. Maybe both happened. Both of these kinds of counterproductive adaptations to cardio have been reported in the literature on weight loss and exercise.

IMO, the main purpose of cardio is to improve cardiovascular conditioning. Whether or not you lose weight will depend on how you appetite responds to the additional activity.


Not a scientific study but I will tell you what I see at most longish distance races I run. The elites are the elites and have a certain genetic body type regardless of activity. The majority of middle of the pack and back runners who complete the run have apparently overeaten due to appetitie stimulation caused by excessive aerobic activity and lack of strength training and diet control is also apparent. I'm nicely trying to say there are lots of jiggling jiggalo's jiggling along. Amongst my running friends I frequently hear about how much weight they gained while training for full marathons. They live on high carb sugary crap.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
This latest moronic post come from Discover Strength and Luke Carlson....



I read the link that you posted. I don't think you have accurately represented what he said in the post.


Yes, I was accurate.

Mr. Carlson wrote:

Quote

Take home message: The research, and Taylors experience, indicate that cardio is not an effective tool for weight loss or body composition improvement.

End quote

Hundreds of thousands have used cardio to lose weight. It is effective. Optimal? Depends!

Carlson is continually writing anti-cardio rhetoric. I call him out. He claims to like cardio. What he does is misconstrue information on cardio cleverly. However, a lie is a lie.

His/her n=1 experiment included zero cardio in 14 months. Therefore any conclusions he reached would have zero to do with cardio. He lied on purpose.
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epdavis7

Interesting, but not definitive

https://medicalxpress.com/...nse-muscles.amp
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

His/her n=1 experiment included zero cardio in 14 months. Therefore any conclusions he reached would have zero to do with cardio. He lied on purpose.


????

I do not understand how you got that from the blog post that you linked to....

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sgb2112


Hobby jogger's would have much better body composition if they ate more like the elite Kenyans(minus the 10-15 teaspoons of sugar they put in their tea.)

Book excerpt- Eliud Kipchoge History's Fastest Marathoner


The diet of the athletes in Kaptagat was quite a surprise to us. Like many aspects characterising the life of an athlete in rural Kenya, it was simple, frugal and repetitive.

It seems as though so many Western athletes obsess over macros, supplements and exorbitant protein consumption, tailoring their diets to facilitate peak performance in training and rapid recovery.
Not so in Kenya.

During our stay we ate with the athletes on multiple occasions; what we observed may surprise you as well. Their diet is predominantly a whole food plant-based diet. Most of the food is locally grown, organic, direct from the surrounding farms.

The protein consumption of the athletes is also quite low. Most athletes rarely eat meat more than once a fortnight; it is considered an expensive luxury, especially by the athletes who aren?t under management. So, what is it that they are mainly eating?

There are several staples that most meals seem to revolve around:

Ugali: made from maize meal, it is cooked in water to form a sort of corn cake. This staple is very high in starch and is very bland, lacking much in the way of flavour. Many meals in the farm-stay were served with an almost insurmountable pile of ugali on the side.
Managu: a dark leafy green, somewhat like spinach. This is normally eaten after being saut?ed in water and some oil, however some athletes we spoke to even cooked the leaves in milk!

Cabbage: prepared in a similar way to managu.
Beans: generally a type of red bean, probably the most protein-rich food we frequently saw athletes eating (other than milk, eggs and occasional meat).

Bread: the athletes seemed to eat bread quite often, as well as chapati (an Indian style flat bread similar to naan). They would frequently eat plain white bread for breakfast, including immediately after finishing the weekly long run (30/40km).

Rice: frequently combined with beans.Eggs: often fried and eaten alongside a dish of managu and ugali. Potato: boiled and eaten alongside ugali.

Snacks: the most frequently consumed snacks were fruits, such as bananas. Many athletes also had a daily rendezvous at 5pm to drink a cup of porridge (millet, water and sugar) and hang out as the day concluded.

Drinks: lots of chai! Sweet milky tea that the runners seemed to drink all day. For most of the athletes, the amount of sugar consumed purely through chai would be over ten to fifteen teaspoons per day! There were very few electrolyte containing sports drinks consumed, most just had water. Some athletes would also drink sodas during the day.

In an average day, the athletes we lived in close proximity to would rarely consume foods outside the above list. A couple of the athletes in Eliud?s group would consume electrolyte powders following long runs, however other than this we did not see anyone consuming supplements, protein powders or recovery products.

The lack of variety in the diet was something that really surprised us. Another thing that I was continually struggling to understand was the lack of flavour in most meals. In markets that we visited there was a plenitude of spices and flavourful foods, yet these seemed to be completely absent in the diet of the athletes, and what we were served in our accommodation.

The diet was almost purely unprocessed fruits, vegetables, legumes and cereals. This alimentary regime is not unique to the athletes we spent time with, it is the diet adhered to by most people in Kenya. This same array of food is on offer in most local restaurants. The mountains of ugali served with each meal take a little while to adjust to, but by the end of our stay, the starch-laden fare that we were served in the farm-stay was something I looked forward to with great anticipation.

Something else that piqued our interest was that the athletes completed most workouts ? including forty-kilometre tempo runs (averaging around 3:15min/km) ? in a fasted state. Some may have had some chai or a small morsel of food prior to commencing, but the runs are completed without assistance from coaching staff ? and there are no pauses during the workouts ? meaning that athletes aren?t drinking during these long runs and most of the time the first calories consumed are after they get back to camp.

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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
This latest moronic post come from Discover Strength and Luke Carlson....



I read the link that you posted. I don't think you have accurately represented what he said in the post.

Yes, I was accurate.

Mr. Carlson wrote:

Quote

Take home message: The research, and Taylors experience, indicate that cardio is not an effective tool for weight loss or body composition improvement.

End quote

Hundreds of thousands have used cardio to lose weight. It is effective. Optimal? Depends!



In theory, if you increase your activity level by exercising more (i.e., doing some cardio), and don't increase your food intake by an amount equivalent to the extra energy expended, then you should lose some weight.

But obesity researchers are starting to concluded that, in practice, the results don't end up being as good as the calorie expenditure associated with the exercise would suggest.

The research that Luke is referring to is probably stuff like this paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...les/PMC3925973/

---

"The Role of Exercise and Physical Activity in Weight Loss and Maintenance"


Abstract: This review explores the role of physical activity (PA) and exercise training (ET) in the prevention of weight gain, initial weight loss, weight maintenance, and the obesity paradox. In particular, we will focus the discussion on the expected initial weight loss from different ET programs, and explore intensity/volume relationships. Based on the present literature, unless the overall volume of aerobic ET is very high, clinically significant weight loss is unlikely to occur. Also, ET also has an important role in weight regain after initial weight loss. Overall, aerobic ET programs consistent with public health recommendations may promote up to modest weight loss (~2 kg), however the weight loss on an individual level is highly heterogeneous. Clinicians should educate their patients on reasonable expectations of weight loss based on their physical activity program and emphasize that numerous health benefits occur from PA programs in the absence of weight loss.

---

So some of the moronic doctors and PhD's who study this stuff don't think cardio is a particularly effective way to lose weight.

Of consider the advice of a prominent obesity expert, Yoni Freedhoff:
---
A few weeks ago I had the great pleasure of delivering the keynote address for Physical Health and Education Canada's annual national conference.

The title of my talk was "Rebranding Exercise" and it makes the case for detaching exercise from weight loss and reattaching it to health.

As to why exercise needs to be rebranded? By preventing cancers, improving blood pressure, cholesterol and sugar, bolstering sleep, attention, energy and mood, and doing so much more, exercise has indisputably proven itself to be the world's best drug ? better than any pharmaceutical product any physician could ever prescribe. Sadly though, exercise is not a weight loss drug, and so long as we continue to push exercise primarily (and sadly sometimes exclusively) in the name of preventing or treating adult or childhood obesity, we'll also continue to short-change the public about the genuinely incredible health benefits of exercise, and simultaneously misinform them about the realities of long term weight management.

http://www.weightymatters.ca/...te-address.html

------

I don't think Luke Carlsson is doing anything worse than repeating what true experts in the field have written.
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spud

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=eXTiiz99p9o

5 minute video with some very interesting stuff in it. Good summary of everything.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

The title of my talk was "Rebranding Exercise" and it makes the case for detaching exercise from weight loss and reattaching it to health.

=== Scott===
I often times get turned off by the constant connection between building muscle and losing weight. Lose 30lbs in 30 days with Professor LindenBrooks journey to the center of the earth weight lose plan. I?m here to talk about building muscle . If I want to talk about losing weight I?ll log on to the blue hair women?s bridge club circle, ha ha !
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oldbutsteady

Avg. Al,

I can't tell what is what in your thread but I have some comments.

First, I'm not sure what obese people have to do with this conversation. I don't think you were the original poster on that point but it is off point. I thought we were talking about weight trainees using some form of aerobic training.

Second, that fact that anyone with a PHD had to conduct a study to determine that weight loss varies among people and that an obese person has a hard time losing weight running, mostly because obese people can't run, is a moron and his/her degree isn't worth the piece of paper it is printed upon.

OBS
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Second, that fact that anyone with a PHD had to conduct a study to determine that weight loss varies among people and that an obese person has a hard time losing weight running, mostly because obese people can't run, is a moron and his/her degree isn't worth the piece of paper it is printed upon.

== Scott ==
I?ve been around enough idiots with PHDs to know that having a PHD in some cases is in no way indicative of you knowing what you are talking about. There?s several people at work here who have PHDs. There?s an old saying here that comes up quite often. They are the dumbest smart people around.
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Average Al

oldbutsteady wrote:
Avg. Al,

I can't tell what is what in your thread but I have some comments.

First, I'm not sure what obese people have to do with this conversation. I don't think you were the original poster on that point but it is off point. I thought we were talking about weight trainees using some form of aerobic training.

Second, that fact that anyone with a PHD had to conduct a study to determine that weight loss varies among people and that an obese person has a hard time losing weight running, mostly because obese people can't run, is a moron and his/her degree isn't worth the piece of paper it is printed upon.

OBS


My comment was directed at ATP. He had suggested that the owner of Discover Strength was a moron for dismissing cardio as a viable and effective tool for weight loss.

I brought up PhD's because ATP regularly dismisses the opinion of HIT trainers if they lack academic credentials.



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Average Al

entsminger wrote:
Second, that fact that anyone with a PHD had to conduct a study to determine that weight loss varies among people and that an obese person has a hard time losing weight running, mostly because obese people can't run, is a moron and his/her degree isn't worth the piece of paper it is printed upon.

== Scott ==
I?ve been around enough idiots with PHDs to know that having a PHD in some cases is in no way indicative of you knowing what you are talking about. There?s several people at work here who have PHDs. There?s an old saying here that comes up quite often. They are the dumbest smart people around.


Having a PhD in a scientific discipline doesn't guarantee you are going to be on the right side of an argument. At best, it shows that, at one point in time, you were able to deal with a scientific topic in a rational and objective fashion. But even very smart and well educated people can let themselves slip, and resort to sloppy and illogical thinking.

I would ask though: when you developed cancer, how did you go about selecting a doctor to treat it? Did you ignore credentials and seek out some alternative medicine guru whose thinking wasn't limited by having gone through the process of earning a bunch of silly degrees and medical certifications?
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oldbutsteady

Avg Al,

Understood, sorry but I had to put my 2 cents in.

OBS
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ATP 4 Vitality

spud wrote:

5 minute video with some very interesting stuff in it. Good summary of everything.


There were lots of dissenting comments. It is just not that simple.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I don't think Luke Carlsson is doing anything worse than repeating what true experts in the field have written.


A lie is a lie!

He knows better!

Why discredit women who love to walk?
Aerobics work for them!

https://walkathome.com/...cess-stories-2/

Carlson and his HiT war on women.
I am calling him out!
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spud

entsminger wrote:
I often times get turned off by the constant connection between building muscle and losing weight......

I'm here to talk about building muscle . If I want to talk about losing weight I?ll log on to the blue hair women?s bridge club circle, ha ha !


You know why strength training is important when you're on a diet right? You've been around here long enough surely.

It's to prevent/limit the loss of muscle. If you lose muscle, your resting metabolic rate will drop and that's not good if losing fat is your goal.

But the metabolic boost from strength training doesn't just come from the few pounds of muscle that you add as a result of the strength training, it comes from using all of your existing muscle mass intensely. Before someone starts strength training, although they have muscle on their body, it's dormant and de-conditioned.

Strength training gets that muscle doing things at a cellular level that help caloric burn.

If you want to talk about building muscle, you're in the wrong place. Why? because most people here are over 40 and don't take pharmaceutical assistance, so nobody is going to be building significant mass.

At this stage of the game it's all about keep the mass you have, remaining strong, healthy and functional so that you are physically capable of doing whatever it is that you want to do.

Muscle gains from any form of training diminish quickly.

You might gain 17 pounds in your first year of training at age 20, if you're doing something vaguely sensible. The following year you gain 8 or 9 pounds and then 4 or 5 pounds the after that.

From about year 3 onwards, your mass is maxed out.

From that point onward, you can either spend the next 50 years obsessively trying to squeeze out another 5 to 10 pounds of muscle (if that's even possible) believing that you'll look jacked as a result, trying every crazy method and program available, using all the different equipment, or you can learn about the myriad reasons to continue strength training beyond external appearance, because that's where the real value is.
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spud

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Hundreds of thousands have used cardio to lose weight. It is effective. Optimal? Depends!


Have hundreds of thousands people used cardio to lose weight?

Let me be clear.

Hundreds of thousands of people have made no alterations to their eating and drinking habits AT ALL, but have started some kind of cardio (walking, running, cycling etc) and lost weight as a result?

The way I see it, and what really happens is that hundreds of thousands of people alter their diet and lose weight. They also happen to increase their activity levels at the same time, but that makes little to no difference to their results.

They then attribute their weight loss to the increased activity levels and rejoice and spread the word.

Remember that stud that I posted earlier in the thread?

RESULTS After 12 weeks:

Diet only group lost 9.64kg (69% was fat = 6.65kg)

Diet and aerobics group lost 8.99kg (78% was fat = 7.01kg)

So aerobics (I don't what the format or protocol was), over the course of 12 weeks yielded an extra loss of 0.36kg. That's 360 grams. That 0.79 pounds.

0.79 pounds for 12 weeks of effort, over and above what was achieved by people who did nothing.

These were overweight men, not people that were already quite lean trying to get ripped.

Wouldn't you expect more?


=======

Don't get me wrong, if someone did strength training for 12 weeks without altering their diet one iota, I wouldn't expect them to drop any weight either.

Calorie reduction is the primary driver of weight loss. Strength training ensures that the lose comes almost entirely from fat stores rather than muscle, bone, connective and organ tissue.

https://skylertanner .com/2011/01/27/you-cant-get-fit-laying-on-the-couch-all-week-apparently/
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DuzHIT

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I don't think Luke Carlsson is doing anything worse than repeating what true experts in the field have written.


A lie is a lie!

He knows better!

Why discredit women who love to walk?
Aerobics work for them!

https://walkathome.com/...cess-stories-2/

Carlson and his HiT war on women.
I am calling him out!


No offense to those who walk for their cardio, but the literature you cited said you can burn 100 calories per mile. How many miles to burn a pound?

OR, you could cut out some calories from your meal plan. What? No plan?

Well, enjoy the walk, then.....
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epdavis7


Carlson and his HiT war on women.
I am calling him out!


Does he even know you are calling him out and if so do you think he even cares? Is he staying awake at night worrying about it lol?

Your posts are funny and the lead in is usually something like this:

Imbeciles!
Idiots!
Dolts!
Fools!
Morons!
Get a grip!
War on women!

Did you do a lot of acid in the 60s?
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ATP 4 Vitality

spud wrote:

Calorie reduction is the primary driver of weight loss.



Straw man argument. No one is arguing this. Discover strength says cardio is not effective. However, much empirical evidence says something else.



Skyler tanner



Skydog is an infamous cardio bashing seat of the trouser kissing pro-BBS dude. Believe him at your own peril.
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ATP 4 Vitality

DuzHIT wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I don't think Luke Carlsson is doing anything worse than repeating what true experts in the field have written.


A lie is a lie!

He knows better!

Why discredit women who love to walk?
Aerobics work for them!

Carlson and his HiT war on women.
I am calling him out!

No offense to those who walk for their cardio, but the literature you cited said you can burn 100 calories per mile. How many miles to burn a pound?

OR, you could cut out some calories from your meal plan. What? No plan?

Well, enjoy the walk, then.....


These women will likely NEVER walk with you!
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:

Carlson and his HiT war on women.
I am calling him out!

Does he even know you are calling him out and if so do you think he even cares? Is he staying awake at night worrying about it lol?



I doubt it. He believes his own lie. Obviously you do also.



Your posts are funny and the lead in is usually something like this:

Imbeciles!
Idiots!
Dolts!



I like this name. Reminds me of your posts!



Fools!
Morons!
Get a grip!
War on women!

Did you do a lot of acid in the 60s?


No! I was walking with women! No time for your crowd and drugs!
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