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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
Arthur Jones believes, "has all but
destroyed the actual great value
of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
MUCH of that "something."

 

This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

To find out more about McCutcheon and his training, click here.

 

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John Little Wrong on Cardio ?
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Chris H

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Every medication does or can have side effects. Diet and exercise should be used as a first approach although most people are not disciplined enough with either, hence, medication becomes a bigger factor for them.

If I recall, statins are also anti-inflammatory which plays a key role in heart disease. (Side note: everyone over 40 should know their C-Reactive Protein number in addition to lipids and glucose.)


i think you hit the nail on the head there.
People wont change, which is sad and mad equally. These drugs are powerful stuff, particularly if our fighting against them with poor lifestyle choices, then your just masking the issue.
Sooner or later, they gonna pay for that, with their bodies processing crap and powerful drugs.

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Chris H

hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Every medication does or can have side effects. Diet and exercise should be used as a first approach although most people are not disciplined enough with either, hence, medication becomes a bigger factor for them.

If I recall, statins are also anti-inflammatory which plays a key role in heart disease. (Side note: everyone over 40 should know their C-Reactive Protein number in addition to lipids and glucose.)

==Scott==
Drugs are always easier. A co worker has this acid reflux stuff and it's basically from eating poorly and he knows it. He comes in yesterday with his MacDonald's and I said hows the reflux going and he says the stuff/pills I'm taking for it seems to be working.








I agree with what you said....but when you eat healthy, exercise (weight training and cardio) and have a family history of cholesterol and heart disease, then statins may help prevention....I hope


when doing our research several years ago i did read of individuals who dispute clean living and exceptionally disciplined lifes had dangerously high cholesterol levels.
For those, one can see that medication was required or should have been considered strongly depending on the health of the person affected. However these individuals are the exception not the norm.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Chris H wrote:
hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Every medication does or can have side effects. Diet and exercise should be used as a first approach although most people are not disciplined enough with either, hence, medication becomes a bigger factor for them.

If I recall, statins are also anti-inflammatory which plays a key role in heart disease. (Side note: everyone over 40 should know their C-Reactive Protein number in addition to lipids and glucose.)

==Scott==
Drugs are always easier. A co worker has this acid reflux stuff and it's basically from eating poorly and he knows it. He comes in yesterday with his MacDonald's and I said hows the reflux going and he says the stuff/pills I'm taking for it seems to be working.








I agree with what you said....but when you eat healthy, exercise (weight training and cardio) and have a family history of cholesterol and heart disease, then statins may help prevention....I hope


when doing our research several years ago i did read of individuals who dispute clean living and exceptionally disciplined lifes had dangerously high cholesterol levels.
For those, one can see that medication was required or should have been considered strongly depending on the health of the person affected. However these individuals are the exception not the norm.


agreed
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epdavis7

The heat wasn?t too bad, but the humidity was like a sauna. Sprint to the finish.

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ATP 4 Vitality

Aerobic training benefits the skin

https://www.vogue.com.au/...204f45f8af81cc9

If you combine a slight negative calorie diet which has a very low protein/fat profile, the blood vessels improve, and the protein in collagen of loose skin can be recycled.
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epdavis7

Chris H wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Every medication does or can have side effects. Diet and exercise should be used as a first approach although most people are not disciplined enough with either, hence, medication becomes a bigger factor for them.

If I recall, statins are also anti-inflammatory which plays a key role in heart disease. (Side note: everyone over 40 should know their C-Reactive Protein number in addition to lipids and glucose.)

i think you hit the nail on the head there.
People wont change, which is sad and mad equally. These drugs are powerful stuff, particularly if our fighting against them with poor lifestyle choices, then your just masking the issue.
Sooner or later, they gonna pay for that, with their bodies processing crap and powerful drugs.



I make meal prep easy by cooking all the meat for the week at once (minus hard boiled eggs and fish). This time of year I pull vegetables out of my garden.

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epdavis7

Some veggies from my raised bed garden.
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Crotalus

epdavis7 wrote:

I make meal prep easy by cooking all the meat for the week at once (minus hard boiled eggs and fish).



I eat pretty much like a dog - same thing everyday and the same time. But I cook the meat fresh each time.

Turkey burger, chicken , eggs, grits, watermelon, baked potato, cheese, nuts, salad, coffee ... some combination of those everyday.

The cashiers at Aldi's tell me they can ring me up when they see me walk in the door I'm so predictable on what I buy.

I did go off track the other day - had a couple slices of pizza for the first time in two years. I did it on my day off as I was concerned about getting the runs afterwards, but all went well, LOL.
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epdavis7

Crotalus wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:

I make meal prep easy by cooking all the meat for the week at once (minus hard boiled eggs and fish).



I eat pretty much like a dog - same thing everyday and the same time. But I cook the meat fresh each time.

Turkey burger, chicken , eggs, grits, watermelon, baked potato, cheese, nuts, salad, coffee ... some combination of those everyday.

The cashiers at Aldi's tell me they can ring me up when they see me walk in the door I'm so predictable on what I buy.

I did go off track the other day - had a couple slices of pizza for the first time in two years. I did it on my day off as I was concerned about getting the runs afterwards, but all went well, LOL.


Same here pretty much except I allow myself 2-3 cheat meals a week. Tomorrow I?ll do my bulk shopping at SAMs and and I?ll have their pizza combo and a hotdog and even a Diet Coke. That?s one of my cheat meals. My wretched excess. Living on the wild side lol.
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ATP 4 Vitality

epdavis7 wrote:
Some veggies from my raised bed garden.


Awesome
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oldbutsteady

EPd7,

What time should I come over for dinner?

OBS
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Chris H

epdavis7 wrote:
The heat wasn?t too bad, but the humidity was like a sauna. Sprint to the finish.



Man you must scare the shit out of your average runner.
That's why you never win - lol
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epdavis7

Chris H wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
The heat wasn?t too bad, but the humidity was like a sauna. Sprint to the finish.



Man you must scare the shit out of your average runner.
That's why you never win - lol


Lol...I?m pretty friendly and easygoing. I do ok for age group especially when they have a Clydesdale division (over 200lbs).
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epdavis7

I have another Half Marathon Sep 14. As a science experiment on myself I just ordered one of those Jeff Galloway Gym Boss timers and I'm going to try a run 3 minutes, walk 1 minute interval for the duration of the half marathon to see how my time compares to running the whole thing. I have watched some folks use the Galloway method do quite well and finish faster than if they ran the whole way through. I'll see how it goes.
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epdavis7

I did the Galloway run walk method today on a 10 mile run. I actually finished a little faster than when I run it straight through without walk breaks, Weird. I felt a lot less fatigued than normal. I actually ran a little faster on the run segments than I normally do. The good thing is my recovery seemed better and my wife and I were in a bowling tournament a few hours later. I feel fully recovered now. There?s something to this. I almost feel like I could do it again tomorrow, but I won?t. Got a lot of outside yard work to do tomorrow
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ATP 4 Vitality

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Just ran across the latest stupid moronic post from a seasoned HIT trainer who claims to be interested in cardio. Remember, a claim is just that, a claim. Intellectual dishonesty is run amuck at Discover Strength. John Little, Doug McGuff, and Luke Carlson can now all be grouped together as portrayers of disingenuous cardiovascular conditioning fitness information. Shame on you!

This latest moronic post come from Discover Strength and Luke Carlson.

Here is where stupidity meets paper. One person eats McDonald?s food and strength trains twice per week. No controls. No nothing other than this person had quit running. Her bod pod data was claimed to be better. No posted data!

Luke Carlsons unbelievably stupid takeaway,

Quote - Take home message: The research, and Taylors experience, indicate that cardio is not an effective tool for weight loss or body composition improvement. - End quote.

No cardio was done however!
No comparison example was made!

Not to mention that bodybuilders and millions other fitness trainees have been using cardio for fat loss for decades. What research?

Just more intellectual dishonesty!

This is why HIT is unpopular.

Lies, lies and more lies!


Well,

I guess ole Luke (discovered) some cardiovascular truths after all!
He did not misrepresent Dr. Gibala?s work like McGuff and Little did in BBS.

https://www.discoverstrength.c...
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:

I guess ole Luke (discovered) some cardiovascular truths after all!
He did not misrepresent Dr. Gibala?s work like McGuff and Little did in BBS.



Regarding the material on cardiovascular conditioning in the BBS book: BBS was published in January 2009, which means it was being written at least a year or two before that date. At that point in time, Gibala was just starting to become known for his work on HIIT. Many of his publications came after BBS was out in print.

That micro interval workout reminds me of the REHIT protocol (except for using somewhat shorter rest periods).

REHIT is sprint interval training, which uses supra-maximal levels of VO2max, and strongly tests your anaerobic power capabilities. It does produce improvements in VO2max, but largely through peripheral adaptations. I've begun to suspect that sprint interval training may be very similar to High Intensity Strength Training in terms of the kind of cardio vascular adaptations that are produced (i.e., mostly peripheral).
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ATP 4 Vitality

Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:


@AA,

U come across as a BBS supporter, even if the book is clearly not science based. I expect more from u.




Regarding the material on cardiovascular conditioning in the BBS book: BBS was published in January 2009, which means it was being written at least a year or two before that date.



Wrong!

From the book!

Quote

Global Metabolic Conditioning


13


The mcmaster studies


On June 6, 2005, CNN reported on the startling (to some) findings of a McMaster University research group, proclaiming that six minutes of pure, hard exercise once a week could be just as effective as an hour of daily moderate activity.

End Quote

Clearly Gibalas work was published before BBS was printed. Dr. Gibala used cardiovascular activities such as cycling for his studies, not resistance training.




At that point in time, Gibala was just starting to become known for his work on HIIT. Many of his publications came after BBS was out in print.

That micro interval workout reminds me of the REHIT protocol (except for using somewhat shorter rest periods).

REHIT is sprint interval training, which uses supra-maximal levels of VO2max, and strongly tests your anaerobic power capabilities. It does produce improvements in VO2max, but largely through peripheral adaptations. I've begun to suspect that sprint interval training may be very similar to High Intensity Strength Training in terms of the kind of cardio vascular adaptations that are produced (i.e., mostly peripheral).



As far as I can ascertain, none of Gibalas studies entailed only resistance training. McGuff and Little misrepresented Gibalas work by stating this.

Quote



Mechanical work is mechanical work


Your heart and lungs cannot tell whether you are working your muscles intensely for thirty seconds on a stationary bike or working them intensely
on a leg press. The heart and lungs know only about energy requirements, which they dutifully attempt to meet. Four thirty-second intervals of high- intensity muscular exertion is four thirty-second intervals of high-intensity muscular exertion, whether that takes place exclusively in the lower body, as in stationary cycling, or in both the upper and lower body, as in resistance exercise.

End Quote

Of course, Dr. Gibala recommends BOTH cardiovascular and resistance training. Furthermore, he NEVER equates resistance training as a replacement for cardiovascular training. This was just clever lying on the authors part. And yes, the science was available to them, they CHOSE to misrepresent Gibala. Cycling evokes far different physiological changes than a leg press. They are NOT the same.
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Average Al

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Average Al wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:


@AA,

U come across as BBS supporter, even if the book is clearly not science based. I expect more form u.




Regarding the material on cardiovascular conditioning in the BBS book: BBS was published in January 2009, which means it was being written at least a year or two before that date.



Wrong!



OK, you got me on the first point. I was aware that Gibala began publishing stuff before BBS was published. He has said that his 2005 study was the first one that got widespread attention. But I did not remember that Doug had cited that particular paper in BBS.

However, if I wanted to criticize BBS, it would be for cherry picking a single early study to support a conclusion, rather than misrepresenting the results of that study.

As for misrepresentation: I think both McGuff and Gibala may both be overselling short duration intervals as good cardio training, regardless of whether they are done on weight machines or stationary bikes. I say that after reading some of the stuff published by Ulrik Wisloff, another well known physiologist who has done a lot of studies on interval training. To quote him from a Reddit Q&A:

----
A cardinal question when I design training programs is to find what limits the capacity I would like to influence. So for cardiorespiratory fitness (measured as Peak VO2) - what is the limitation? Is it the working muscles or is it the heart?

For most people working muscles have the capacity to handle 3-4 x more blood than the heart can pump at maximum. Therefore, for most people the pumping capacity of the heart limits PeakVO2.

The pumping capacity of the heart is made up from stroke volume (how much the heart pumps per beat) multiplied by maximal heart frequency. Maximal heart frequency is inborn and is reduced about a beat/min every second year. Thus, the only thing we can stimulate to increase the pumping capacity of the heart, is the stroke volume! Then an important question for choice of training intensity is at which intensity do we reach maximal stroke volume? Now we know that maximal stroke volume is reached somewhere between 85-95% of maximal heart frequency. Further, how quick do we reach maximal stroke volume?

A critical question for the duration of the exercise! Maximal stroke volume is reached after 1-2 minutes or as fast as you reach 85-95% of maximal heart frequency. So from this, if we stop let's say after a minute when we have reached maximal stroke volume we do not get many seconds of optimal training for the heart. The heart is as any other muscle, it must be loaded to get trained - and the only healthy way to challenge the hearts pumping capacity is to fill it with maximal amounts of blood for longer periods of times. It is obvious that one cannot exercise for very long periods of time at 85-95% of maximal heart rate and that is why we recommend to use interval training, with periods that get you up to the needed intensity, interspaced with active breaks to get rid of the lactic acid that builds up during the interval (because it is not pure aerobic metabolism going on during such intervals aiming for 85-95% of maximal heart rate). For how long are we able to exercise at maximal stroke volume? An important question for deciding the duration of the training! Our experience is that absolutely everyone can do 4 minutes, including very untrained individuals (if not they simply exercise at too high intensity - we have done this in individuals with PeakVO2 levels as low as 11 ml/kg/min and as high as 87 ml/kg/min). That is why we often recommend 4x4 minute interval training as described CERG's webpage for individuals that would like to have time efficient and very effective training program. We have done this in a lot of patient groups as well as in highly trained individuals - and it works.

So what if the heart is not a limiting factor? In some very untrained persons factors inside the muscle may limit Peak VO2. Still doing the 4x4 is very effective in terms of improving the factors inside the muscle - and as a side effect one also train the heart very efficiently. That said it is evolving evidence that the sprint interval training protocols are more effective in terms of improving factors inside the muscle when compared to the 4 x4 interval training I often recommend - but then you do not get very good cardiac training. A combination is certainly a good compromise and I do that my self in my own training.

Ref: https://thewinnower.com/...ed-diseases-ama

-----

So 20 or 30 seconds of all out effort on a bike (or an intense set of leg presses) may improve VO2max by peripheral adaptations of the leg muscles. And both may produce other desirable metabolic adaptations like improved insulin sensitivity. But neither will load the heart sufficiently long to produce a desirable central adaptation. At least that is the cautionary note I take from this.
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ATP 4 Vitality

@AA,

Sir,

I concur 100%

I feel Ventilation Threshold 1 is a salient piece of the cardiovascular conditioning puzzle.

Cardiovascular conditioning interval training is problematic. Many simply are in such poor cardiovascular condition that sprint interval training becomes dangerous. Many HITers who eschew cardiovascular conditioning fall into this category.
I have been successful in enlightening the ignorance of avoiding cardio. As you can readily see, there is quite a bit of fitness fraud being developed by HiT authors. John Little is just another fraud on the fitness frontier.

What are your thoughts on Pete Sisco and static contraction?
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sgb2112

'Most remarkably, this 10-minute workout (with only 1-minute of intense work) produced the same benefit as 135 minutes of moderate aerobic exercise over a 12-week study.'

1 minute of intense work=135 minutes moderate aerobics..nope.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Global Metabolic Conditioning
Utter nonsense from McGuff & Little

Clues

There are a few!

HITers should stop reading here!

Truths about metabolism are dispensed here!

Clue # 1

Fat is stored energy of 9 calories per gram

Like many things - too much of a good thing - is not ideal.
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spud

sgb2112 wrote:
'Most remarkably, this 10-minute workout (with only 1-minute of intense work) produced the same benefit as 135 minutes of moderate aerobic exercise over a 12-week study.'

1 minute of intense work=135 minutes moderate aerobics..nope.


Be careful here. According to whatever measures (numbers) Martin Gibala and his team were tracking and comparing between the two groups before and after the experiment, the 10 minute workout DID yield the same benefits or better than the 135 minutes of moderate activity.

The question is, are the measures that Gibala and his team using actually meaningful for people in terms of improving their health?


=========

Here's a question for all the pro cardio people.

How do you measure the effectiveness of your cardio workouts?

I don't mean in terms of performance like running/cycling/rowing a set distance in a quicker time than you did in your last workout.

I mean in terms of improved health.

What markers do you look at and say to yourself - "There is proof. I am more healthy now than I was before."

I'm already aware of the following markers, so I'm not so interested in them:

* Resting heart rate
* Blood fat/cholesterol
* Blood sugar
* Blood pressure

Do any of you look at anything else? How often do you look at it to assess whether you're still on track with your workouts?
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Chris H

John Little made the point several years ago, that does an 80 year old get breathless climbing a flight of stairs due to heart/lung conditioning, or is it simply that he has lost strength in his legs
{muscle mass}

There appears to be an argument for both strength training/HIIT and LSD.

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Chris H

@ATP

STATICS -

from personal experience good for improving every day strength.
What the modern fitness world calls functional.
From the few people i have strength trained for Martial arts, i say excellent.

Flaw - Sisco and Little i feel confuse engineering/mechanics with bio-mechanics/biology. Yes i say there is a correlation, but not as linear/paralled etc etc as Sisco endorses.
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