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"Doing more exercise with less intensity,"
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of weight training. Something
must be done . . . and quickly."
The New Bodybuilding for
Old-School Results supplies
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This is one of 93 photos of Andy McCutcheon that are used in The New High-Intensity Training to illustrate the recommended exercises.

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New HIT Book Rep Style vs 30-10-30
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Daoust

I am currently doing the program that you can found in the High Intensity Training book 8 to 12 rep to faillure with food results. My question Is does this type of routine is now outdated when you compare it against 30-10-30 (30sec neg, 10 rep , 30sec neg). Does the 30-10-30 have been shown to give better results than 8 to 12 rep until faillure? If it is better, should I still follow the same routine in the book (the new HIT) but change the way the reps are done to the 30-10-30? Thank you

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Crotalus

I just see it as another way to do a set ... another 'tool' in your training arsenal.

I've done something similar in the past. I would start with a 12 second negative , try for 6 regular reps with that last rep trying again for a 12 second negative.

The 30-10-30 for me would be impossible for chins / pull ups. After starting with a 30 second negative . I'd be lucky to get 3 positive reps unless I was at a assisted chin station where I could reduce my bodyweight. I remember after a 12 second negative I was never able to get the full 6 regular reps.

I suppose this 30-10-30 will work better with some movements but not all.

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Nwlifter

All styles have worked well for subjects, it's more a matter of something that's a change when needed yet still works well. Example, look at Eddie's results in 'Massive Muscles in 10 Weeks' and his results in 'BIG', two different styles (one regular speed, the other superslow) but he gained a lot of muscle in both. And people gain with 30 10 30 too, so all probably work just as well, but after a while, a change can help spur new gains.
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Average Al

Daoust wrote:
I am currently doing the program that you can found in the High Intensity Training book 8 to 12 rep to faillure with food results. My question Is does this type of routine is now outdated when you compare it against 30-10-30 (30sec neg, 10 rep , 30sec neg). Does the 30-10-30 have been shown to give better results than 8 to 12 rep until faillure? If it is better, should I still follow the same routine in the book (the new HIT) but change the way the reps are done to the 30-10-30? Thank you



Dr Darden's recent books are built around case studies: he takes a group and has them follow a particular diet and exercise program and then documents the outcomes resulting from that kind of intervention. Typically, there are no controls, or alternative interventions that are studied. To my knowledge, he hasn't published any work where he directly compare two exercise protocols, all else held equal.

At best, he might be able to offer some general impressions about whether or not people in a particular case study did better or worse, on average, than people in some of his earlier case studies.

You should be aware that others in the HIT community (Discover Strength, working with Fisher and Steele) have recently attempted to conduct studies where they compare different HIT protocols or strategies for effectiveness. To date, most of these have failed to show any meaningful differences resulting from stuff like rest pause, pre-exhaust, rep cadence or duration.

If I was to make a bet on it, I'd bet that it would be difficult to demonstrate a meaningful difference in outcomes between the two protocols, just because that is typically what has happened when this kind of stuff is subjected to a controlled test.
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HeavyHitter32

Nwlifter wrote:
All styles have worked well for subjects, it's more a matter of something that's a change when needed yet still works well. Example, look at Eddie's results in 'Massive Muscles in 10 Weeks' and his results in 'BIG', two different styles (one regular speed, the other superslow) but he gained a lot of muscle in both. And people gain with 30 10 30 too, so all probably work just as well, but after a while, a change can help spur new gains.


Fully agreed!
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Crotalus

Average Al wrote:

To date, most of these have failed to show any meaningful differences resulting from stuff like rest pause, pre-exhaust, rep cadence or duration.



Though I love all of these ways, I'll agree it's the fact that you CHANGED from one way to another for awhile that gave you the results rather than the method itself.





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Daoust

Thank you for your reply. I was beliving that the 30-10-30 was more like the specialized routine training like recomanded in the advance routine of the " new High Intensity Training" book.

So only by trying it that I will see my preference.

Thank you
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epdavis7

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
All styles have worked well for subjects, it's more a matter of something that's a change when needed yet still works well. Example, look at Eddie's results in 'Massive Muscles in 10 Weeks' and his results in 'BIG', two different styles (one regular speed, the other superslow) but he gained a lot of muscle in both. And people gain with 30 10 30 too, so all probably work just as well, but after a while, a change can help spur new gains.

Fully agreed!


Agreed! Sometimes the changes can be small like changing the order of exercises or perhaps something like 30 10 30. Everything seems to work for about six weeks. I still like to have a baseline I come back to so as to gauge progress.
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marktb68

Was wondering why the fast tempo during the 10 reps?
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marktb68

Was wondering why the fast tempo during the 10 reps
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Ellington Darden

marktb68 wrote:
Was wondering why the fast tempo during the 10 reps?


I started with a 30-30-30 style, which I described in Body Fat Breakthrough. I wanted to do reps for the middle 30-second positive. I could have done the reps faster or slower than 1-second positives and 2-second negatives, but it just seemed to work well at that pace.

You can certainly try the in-between reps at a slower tempo. If you do, report back.

Ellington

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simon-hecubus

Texas, USA

Crotalus wrote:
I just see it as another way to do a set ... another 'tool' in your training arsenal.

I've done something similar in the past. I would start with a 12 second negative , try for 6 regular reps with that last rep trying again for a 12 second negative.

The 30-10-30 for me would be impossible for chins / pull ups. After starting with a 30 second negative . I'd be lucky to get 3 positive reps unless I was at a assisted chin station where I could reduce my bodyweight. I remember after a 12 second negative I was never able to get the full 6 regular reps.

I suppose this 30-10-30 will work better with some movements but not all.


I was thinking the same thing. Agree that 30-10-30 would be too much for certain bodyparts and/or exercises. Even with a 20% drop in the work set weight.

But, I'd also see 12-6-12 as too low.

20-8-20 might be a good intermediate to 'get used' to this style. After 2-3 weeks of that, I could try 30-10-30 for my STF muscles and 12-6-12 for the FTF
ones.

Best,
Scott
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

I've been thinking of trying a new way of training with concepts taken from Arthur Jones and Dr. Darden.
I call it Negative Accentuated Contra-lateral Training ( copyright 03/10/2019 ) .
The negative accentuated is from Arthur Jones and basically you utilize 70-80% of the weight you would use for a regular training session. You then lift the weight with both limbs and alternate the lowering from one limb to the other.
For example with the curl you would lift the weight with both arms and then lower the weight with your right arm. Then you would again curl the weight with both arms and this time lower the weight with your left arm. You continue in this fashion of alternating the negative ( eccentric ) part from one arm to the other until you can no longer lift the weight or if you can no longer control the lowering of the weight.
Arthur believed that this form of exercise was PERHAPS the best method of training.
Now obviously you can't utilize NA with barbells or dumb bells,you must use a machine.
I recall that Dr. Darden found ,in his experience training people, that NA had a problem, the limb that was resting when the other limb was lowering the weight allowed the arms to recover too much.
Or words to that effect.

The contra-lateral method of training was devised by Dr. Darden and was highlighted in one of his bodybuilding books " Bigger Muscles in 42 Days "
Basically with contra-lateral training requires the utilization of a split routine and the trainee would first work one side of his body with an exercise and then work the other side of the body with a different exercise but that's not all there is to it.
The exercise for one side would work the upper body and the next exercise would work the lower part of the body.
For example first you would do a curl with your right arm and then you would do a leg extension with your left leg.
Then the following day you would reverse the sides and do a curl with your left arm and a leg extension with your right leg.
Certainly a novel idea for training that was inspired by watching a baseball pitcher who was constantly being injured.

So what is my idea. I've taken elements of both of these methods and created Negative Accentuated Contra-lateral Training .
I believe I've solved the problem that Dr. Darden found with Negative Accentuated training by utilizing a method similar to his Contra-lateral training method.
It's really very simple for example I will use the curl again.
Take 70-80% of what you train with in a normal curl. You then lift the weight with both arms and lower it with your right arm only. Then use both arms to lift the weight and lower the weight with only your right arm again. You continue this to failure.
Then instead of working out the next day you work out again in a week, but this time you do the negatives with your left arm only.
This can be done with machines like the pullover,the bench, the press, triceps extension, leg extension,leg curl,leg press etc.
So this method eliminates the time problem with NA and by working out twice a week you give the muscles used for the negatives a full week to recover. You can use twice every 10 days of whatever you think is best.
I haven't tried it yet as I have a bad case of the flu,but if anyone tries it I would like to know how it worked,or not, for you.
Bill
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Ellington Darden

Bill,

That's an interesting concept. Please report back after you've tried it for a month or so?

Ellington

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32jack

Bill Sekerak wrote:
I've been thinking of trying a new way of training with concepts taken from Arthur Jones and Dr. Darden.
I call it Negative Accentuated Contra-lateral Training ( copyright 03/10/2019 ) .
The negative accentuated is from Arthur Jones and basically you utilize 70-80% of the weight you would use for a regular training session. You then lift the weight with both limbs and alternate the lowering from one limb to the other.
For example with the curl you would lift the weight with both arms and then lower the weight with your right arm. Then you would again curl the weight with both arms and this time lower the weight with your left arm. You continue in this fashion of alternating the negative ( eccentric ) part from one arm to the other until you can no longer lift the weight or if you can no longer control the lowering of the weight.
Arthur believed that this form of exercise was PERHAPS the best method of training.
Now obviously you can't utilize NA with barbells or dumb bells,you must use a machine.
I recall that Dr. Darden found ,in his experience training people, that NA had a problem, the limb that was resting when the other limb was lowering the weight allowed the arms to recover too much.
Or words to that effect.

The contra-lateral method of training was devised by Dr. Darden and was highlighted in one of his bodybuilding books " Bigger Muscles in 42 Days "
Basically with contra-lateral training requires the utilization of a split routine and the trainee would first work one side of his body with an exercise and then work the other side of the body with a different exercise but that's not all there is to it.
The exercise for one side would work the upper body and the next exercise would work the lower part of the body.
For example first you would do a curl with your right arm and then you would do a leg extension with your left leg.
Then the following day you would reverse the sides and do a curl with your left arm and a leg extension with your right leg.
Certainly a novel idea for training that was inspired by watching a baseball pitcher who was constantly being injured.

So what is my idea. I've taken elements of both of these methods and created Negative Accentuated Contra-lateral Training .
I believe I've solved the problem that Dr. Darden found with Negative Accentuated training by utilizing a method similar to his Contra-lateral training method.
It's really very simple for example I will use the curl again.
Take 70-80% of what you train with in a normal curl. You then lift the weight with both arms and lower it with your right arm only. Then use both arms to lift the weight and lower the weight with only your right arm again. You continue this to failure.
Then instead of working out the next day you work out again in a week, but this time you do the negatives with your left arm only.
This can be done with machines like the pullover,the bench, the press, triceps extension, leg extension,leg curl,leg press etc.
So this method eliminates the time problem with NA and by working out twice a week you give the muscles used for the negatives a full week to recover. You can use twice every 10 days of whatever you think is best.
I haven't tried it yet as I have a bad case of the flu,but if anyone tries it I would like to know how it worked,or not, for you.
Bill


Bill- I really like your idea! I'll give it a run on Saturday when I train. Along the lines/suggestions of X-Force, are you thinking/suggesting a 2-3 second positive and a 5 second negative per rep? Also, would MMF be on the positive or negative stroke?

Jack
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32jack

Bill,
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you suggest a rep protocol similar to X-force--- 2-3 sec. positive/ 5 sec. negative? Also, would failure occur on the positive or negative stroke (once control of the lowering diminishes)?
Thx!
Jack
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Equity

Bill,

In regards to the N/A only being able to be performed on machine (with a fused movement arm); I think one legged squats could be utilised in this fashion whilst holding onto something. A Zane Leg Blaster or weighed vest would be a good idea for extra resistance.

By the way... good idea!!! I like it when someone comes up with something new; a synergy of two different concepts. Well done!

Regards.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Ellington Darden wrote:
Bill,

That's an interesting concept. Please report back after you've tried it for a month or so?

Ellington



Sure, I wish I could get a young guy to try it as my being close to 70 will probably not produce anything near what someone in their 20s might be capable of.
We'll see what I can do at my age once I get over this damn flu.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

32jack wrote:
Bill,
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you suggest a rep protocol similar to X-force--- 2-3 sec. positive/ 5 sec. negative? Also, would failure occur on the positive or negative stroke (once control of the lowering diminishes)?
Thx!
Jack


I would suggest a 3-4 second concentric ( negative) depending on the ROM and a 8 second negative.
I am pretty sure you would probably hit MMF on the concentric ( positive)although I haven't tried it so I am not sure .
Additionally as this routine involves a lot of negative work I would strongly suggest 8-10 exercises and one set per exercise.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Equity wrote:
Bill,

In regards to the N/A only being able to be performed on machine (with a fused movement arm); I think one legged squats could be utilised in this fashion whilst holding onto something. A Zane Leg Blaster or weighed vest would be a good idea for extra resistance.

By the way... good idea!!! I like it when someone comes up with something new; a synergy of two different concepts. Well done!

Regards.


Thank you, I am retired so I have a lot of time to think about stuff that interests me.
Sure if you can safely perform one legged squats I think that would work.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

I just wanted to mention that if anyone tries this you might want to do a few " break in " sessions where you would stop a few reps short of failure.
I mention this because if you are not used to doing negatives you can become so sore that you will almost be crippled for at least a few days.
I speak from experience as when Arthur first published his ideas about negatives I jumped in with both feet.
Even though I had been working out regularly,for over a year at the time , 8 negative exercises to failure literally crippled me for over a week.
The worst was my calves. I did a set of twenty NA reps for one set and the next morning I could not walk, I got my girl friend to massage them and she said it felt like I had knots under my skin.
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32jack

Bill Sekerak wrote:
32jack wrote:
Bill,
Thank you for your suggestion. Would you suggest a rep protocol similar to X-force--- 2-3 sec. positive/ 5 sec. negative? Also, would failure occur on the positive or negative stroke (once control of the lowering diminishes)?
Thx!
Jack

I would suggest a 3-4 second concentric ( negative) depending on the ROM and a 8 second negative.
I am pretty sure you would probably hit MMF on the concentric ( positive)although I haven't tried it so I am not sure .
Additionally as this routine involves a lot of negative work I would strongly suggest 8-10 exercises and one set per exercise.


Hi Bill,
Yes, 1 set per exercise and 8 sets/ full body, works well for me. I'm 63, so I'm also trying to see if I can maintain or "build" any LBM w/ proper rest and NA work. Thanks again for your suggestion!!
Jack

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