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Mentzer Was Almost Correct.
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Fatso

Mike Mentzer once wrote:

?For a training routine to be productive it must, of course, stimulate muscular growth. A routine that stimulates growth must also allow that growth to take place.?

And he was almost correct. The first part of his statement is 100% spot on. It?s the second part that is true BUT somewhat misleading. Most often Mentzer came from the sole point of view that it was intensity and it?s related elements duration and frequency that must be carefully regulated to allow that growth to take place. What he never really addressed fully was the nutritional aspect that also allows growth to take place. Sure he did touch on nutrition but the info he gave out was always very secondary to the theory, principles and application of Heavy Duty. In fact, Mentzer hugely simplified the role of nutrition. And personally that?s where I lost my way.

According to Mentzer, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. As long as you?re making a reasonable effort to get a macro ratio of 60% carbs, 20% proteins and 20% fats and eating enough food you will be serving the needs of the growth mechanism. He also said that to sustain an additional pound of muscle, once stimulated, you only needed to consume an additional value of approx. 25 calories a day over and above your maintenance calories. All of this is TRUE, with the exception of the last bit as an additional 1 lb of muscle requires between about 35 and 50 calories a day.

What he failed to say ? or perhaps realise ? is that you need to keep each meal approximately the same size, eat at regular spaced intervals, drink around 1 gallon (2 1/2 ? 3 litres) of water a day and support your nutrition with 9 ? 10 hours of sleep each and every night to allow the growth to take place. Don?t lose your way. Nutrition counts more than I realised, more than Mentzer wrote about and more than most people care about.
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epdavis7

Fatso wrote:
Mike Mentzer once wrote:

?For a training routine to be productive it must, of course, stimulate muscular growth. A routine that stimulates growth must also allow that growth to take place.?

And he was almost correct. The first part of his statement is 100% spot on. It?s the second part that is true BUT somewhat misleading. Most often Mentzer came from the sole point of view that it was intensity and it?s related elements duration and frequency that must be carefully regulated to allow that growth to take place. What he never really addressed fully was the nutritional aspect that also allows growth to take place. Sure he did touch on nutrition but the info he gave out was always very secondary to the theory, principles and application of Heavy Duty. In fact, Mentzer hugely simplified the role of nutrition. And personally that?s where I lost my way.

According to Mentzer, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. As long as you?re making a reasonable effort to get a macro ratio of 60% carbs, 20% proteins and 20% fats and eating enough food you will be serving the needs of the growth mechanism. He also said that to sustain an additional pound of muscle, once stimulated, you only needed to consume an additional value of approx. 25 calories a day over and above your maintenance calories. All of this is TRUE, with the exception of the last bit as an additional 1 lb of muscle requires between about 35 and 50 calories a day.

What he failed to say ? or perhaps realise ? is that you need to keep each meal approximately the same size, eat at regular spaced intervals, drink around 1 gallon (2 1/2 ? 3 litres) of water a day and support your nutrition with 9 ? 10 hours of sleep each and every night to allow the growth to take place. Don?t lose your way. Nutrition counts more than I realised, more than Mentzer wrote about and more than most people care about.


I know there is much disagreement on what is a proper diet particularly for those interested in strength and health. I myself follow a Paleoish diet (not necessarily low carb, it doesn't have to be) 80% of the time. I do allow a few cheat meals spread throughout the week to indulge myself occasionally. Every once in awhile I go off the wagon and follow the path of wretched excess during vacations and special occasions. Overall though I do very well and I do agree with you that diet is important for one to be as healthy as their genetics allow. Water is important and I drink about a gallon a day. Sleep I absolutely stink at and need to do better. 5 1/2 to 6 hrs is all I get unless ill. If I could ever get to 7 I would be happy.
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Chris H

Fatso wrote:
Mike Mentzer once wrote:

?For a training routine to be productive it must, of course, stimulate muscular growth. A routine that stimulates growth must also allow that growth to take place.?

And he was almost correct. The first part of his statement is 100% spot on. It?s the second part that is true BUT somewhat misleading. Most often Mentzer came from the sole point of view that it was intensity and it?s related elements duration and frequency that must be carefully regulated to allow that growth to take place. What he never really addressed fully was the nutritional aspect that also allows growth to take place. Sure he did touch on nutrition but the info he gave out was always very secondary to the theory, principles and application of Heavy Duty. In fact, Mentzer hugely simplified the role of nutrition. And personally that?s where I lost my way.

According to Mentzer, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. As long as you?re making a reasonable effort to get a macro ratio of 60% carbs, 20% proteins and 20% fats and eating enough food you will be serving the needs of the growth mechanism. He also said that to sustain an additional pound of muscle, once stimulated, you only needed to consume an additional value of approx. 25 calories a day over and above your maintenance calories. All of this is TRUE, with the exception of the last bit as an additional 1 lb of muscle requires between about 35 and 50 calories a day.

What he failed to say ? or perhaps realise ? is that you need to keep each meal approximately the same size, eat at regular spaced intervals, drink around 1 gallon (2 1/2 ? 3 litres) of water a day and support your nutrition with 9 ? 10 hours of sleep each and every night to allow the growth to take place. Don?t lose your way. Nutrition counts more than I realised, more than Mentzer wrote about and more than most people care about.


nutrition is important, but i feel overstated for increasing muscle mass.
Most of the advice leads to all but the genetically blessed getting fat, and if maintained to long illness.
Several perma bulkers i know, despite the good quality of their diet {but too much quantity}, and strict adherence to cardio and weight training, became diabetic.

Similarly hydration is important, and i have no knowledge to contest the gallon a day you cite, but if one was eating several small meals a day {say 4 -6} and drinking that much water, would it not effect the digestive process ?

Lastly sleep, i feel 7/8 is more than adequate if one has a good diet and general stressors under control.
Maybe 9 hours on leg day ?
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HeavyHitter32

Fatso wrote:

What he failed to say ? or perhaps realise ? is that you need to keep each meal approximately the same size, eat at regular spaced intervals, drink around 1 gallon (2 1/2 ? 3 litres) of water a day and support your nutrition with 9 ? 10 hours of sleep each and every night to allow the growth to take place. Don?t lose your way. Nutrition counts more than I realised, more than Mentzer wrote about and more than most people care about.


But you don't "need" to do this.

I only need 6 to 6.5 hours a sleep a night. Who can even sleep 9-10 hours a night?! (Recent research has shown sleeping 10 hours for adults might indicate an underlying problem).

I don't need to eat approximately the same sized meal all day long.

I do drink plenty of water to stay hydrated, but not a requirement for muscle growth.

I don't agree with some of Mentzer's ideas anymore, but I don't think he was terribly off in that regard. Increase your calories to gain weight, decrease to lose. You may not need to doing anything depending on your diet and calorie intake. High carb, low carb, moderate carb, etc. comes down to individual factors and preferences as do the other things I noted.

Not saying those are bad ideas necessarily , but not needs across the board.
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Nwlifter

HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Fatso wrote:

What he failed to say ? or perhaps realise ? is that you need to keep each meal approximately the same size, eat at regular spaced intervals, drink around 1 gallon (2 1/2 ? 3 litres) of water a day and support your nutrition with 9 ? 10 hours of sleep each and every night to allow the growth to take place. Don?t lose your way. Nutrition counts more than I realised, more than Mentzer wrote about and more than most people care about.

But you don't "need" to do this.

I only need 6 to 6.5 hours a sleep a night. Who can even sleep 9-10 hours a night?! (Recent research has shown sleeping 10 hours for adults might indicate an underlying problem).

I don't need to eat approximately the same sized meal all day long.

I do drink plenty of water to stay hydrated, but not a requirement for muscle growth.

I don't agree with some of Mentzer's ideas anymore, but I don't think he was terribly off in that regard. Increase your calories to gain weight, decrease to lose. You may not need to doing anything depending on your diet and calorie intake. High carb, low carb, moderate carb, etc. comes down to individual factors and preferences as do the other things I noted.

Not saying those are bad ideas necessarily , but not needs across the board.


Agree
the only 'needs' are enough protein so all the body's needs are met and some left over for hypertrophy,... since it's probably last on the 'requirements' list. And enough calories that your not robbing muscle tissue for energy needs.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Fatso wrote:

the only 'needs' are enough protein so all the body's needs are met and some left over for hypertrophy,... since it's probably last on the 'requirements' list. And enough calories that your not robbing muscle tissue for energy needs.


And those protein needs are very minimal. 20 to 30 grams a day of protein are easily met with a whole food, plant based diet, and suffice for a long healthy life. The gut keeps sloughing off cells and causes a turnover of protein all the while keeping essential amino acids in balance. There is no fantasy need to combine certain foods to get all the necessary amino acids.

Not enough carbohydrates in the diet will trigger the alanine cycle robbing one of muscle.

The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

No wonder young men fall for just another vice.
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plebian

nutrition is the least productive factor by far. The most overrated, and on purpose - its promotion is closely related to the sales of ridiculous supplement products.

most of the nutritional habits being prescribed end up doing nothing more than making people fat. Consider how boilerplate it is in the "industry" these days to prescribe a 500 caloric surplus for someone who wishes to gain muscle. On the moronic, completely thoughtless basis that "500 x 7 = 1lb per week" yeah, a lb of FAT has that many calories in it. A lb of muscle is maybe ~600-700 at the most.

Now does anyone really believe they can "force" the body to grow muscle faster by cramming in more protein and calories? Of course they do, and the result is the spare tire and pseudogynecomastia that is all too common among the gym going population these days.

That a large percentage of the overeating consists of protein is meaningless. As jones stated way back in the very first nautilus bulletin, you CAN and WILL get fat on a diet of almost pure protein, and QUICKLY. People refuse to believe this, despite literally wearing the evidence around their waists.

People talk about nutrition; they want to talk about protein calories. Ive never once seen someone considering adding more green vegetables or carrot to their diet to make up for micronutrient deficiencies.
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Fatso wrote:

the only 'needs' are enough protein so all the body's needs are met and some left over for hypertrophy,... since it's probably last on the 'requirements' list. And enough calories that your not robbing muscle tissue for energy needs.


And those protein needs are very minimal. 20 to 30 grams a day of protein are easily met with a whole food, plant based diet, and suffice for a long healthy life. The gut keeps sloughing off cells and causes a turnover of protein all the while keeping essential amino acids in balance. There is no fantasy need to combine certain foods to get all the necessary amino acids.

Not enough carbohydrates in the diet will trigger the alanine cycle robbing one of muscle.

The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

No wonder young men fall for just another vice.


20 grams a day for an adult? who weight trains? Not even close
that's how much a 40 lb dog needs a day.
More like 1.6-1.8 grams per KG minimum of high quality, not inferior veggie protein.

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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Fatso wrote:

the only 'needs' are enough protein so all the body's needs are met and some left over for hypertrophy,... since it's probably last on the 'requirements' list. And enough calories that your not robbing muscle tissue for energy needs.


And those protein needs are very minimal. 20 to 30 grams a day of protein are easily met with a whole food, plant based diet, and suffice for a long healthy life. The gut keeps sloughing off cells and causes a turnover of protein all the while keeping essential amino acids in balance. There is no fantasy need to combine certain foods to get all the necessary amino acids.

Not enough carbohydrates in the diet will trigger the alanine cycle robbing one of muscle.

The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

No wonder young men fall for just another vice.

20 grams a day for an adult? who weight trains? Not even close
that's how much a 40 lb dog needs a day.
More like 1.6-1.8 grams per KG minimum of high quality, not inferior veggie protein.



Listen up!

A meathead has spoken!

Pick up a weight, you need a steak!


Weider and Hoffman are smiling
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epdavis7

I find myself agreeing with some points and disagreeing with others. Supplements are useless unless you have a deficiency- check (particularly bodybuilding supplements). You can?t force feed growth - check. Protein is important, but not sure on exact amount. To say nutrition is unimportant seems crazy to me though. Maybe not so much from a bodybuilding standpoint, but I sure feel better eating fresh meat, vegetables and fruit 80% of the time than I did living on McDonalds, KFC and Pizza Hut. People are Type II diabetics, on statins, have high blood pressure etc for a reason. Some of course is genetic, but some is self induced. If you watched calories you may be able to build a great physique eating that way, but would you be healthy? Anomalies and black swans exist, but they are not the norm.
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
HeavyHitter32 wrote:
Fatso wrote:

the only 'needs' are enough protein so all the body's needs are met and some left over for hypertrophy,... since it's probably last on the 'requirements' list. And enough calories that your not robbing muscle tissue for energy needs.


And those protein needs are very minimal. 20 to 30 grams a day of protein are easily met with a whole food, plant based diet, and suffice for a long healthy life. The gut keeps sloughing off cells and causes a turnover of protein all the while keeping essential amino acids in balance. There is no fantasy need to combine certain foods to get all the necessary amino acids.

Not enough carbohydrates in the diet will trigger the alanine cycle robbing one of muscle.

The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

No wonder young men fall for just another vice.

20 grams a day for an adult? who weight trains? Not even close
that's how much a 40 lb dog needs a day.
More like 1.6-1.8 grams per KG minimum of high quality, not inferior veggie protein.



Listen up!

A meathead has spoken!

Pick up a weight, you need a steak!


Weider and Hoffman are smiling


I'm a meathead? Ok that makes you a ... what... cabbage head? lol

Of course, it's Weider... lol, it's not the TONS of experience from thousands of trainee's and all the research from great doctors like Dr. Jose Antonio, ... even the conservative RDA is 3x higher than your 20 grams of veggie protein a day idea lol
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justmax7

Texas, USA

Dr. Darden says 0.36 grams protein per pound of bodyweight. Has science changed?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

==Scott==

Men are this and men are that. Hmmmm?
Women never fall for these vices?
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

==Scott==

Men are this and men are that. Hmmmm?
Women never fall for these vices?


Why do not you speak out about this?

Not many women here!

Go right ahead genius. List the vices for women!
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Nwlifter

justmax7 wrote:
Dr. Darden says 0.36 grams protein per pound of bodyweight. Has science changed?



They have done literally tons of careful studies on this. less than 1.2 per KG does hamper growth, which is about the same as that .36 per lb. But they do see increased hypertrophy all the way up to something close to .8 to 1 gram per lb, but nothing beyond that. Beyond that it seems to only increase the thermic effect and cause fat loss.

We get an increase in protein synthesis also for about 1.5 hours after a protein meal, it directly increases muscle protein synthesis rates. It does rise higher the more protein in the meal, studies have seen it increase proportionally up to 40 grams per meal. People never think about the support of muscle in the days after a workout. If you don't offset the degradation during fasting times with anabolism after a meal, your average PS rates will be much lower and negate the post workout increases.
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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

==Scott==

Men are this and men are that. Hmmmm?
Women never fall for these vices?


haha that's what I was thinking too... and is lying a vice?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

==Scott==

Men are this and men are that. Hmmmm?
Women never fall for these vices?

Why do not you speak out about this?

Not many women here!

Go right ahead genius. List the vices for women!


== Scott==
Any of those listed above could be things women could do as well and there are a few women on here. Up until now I have pretty much sided with you on just about anything but I don?t appreciate you calling me genius !! You called another who disagreed with you a meathead. You?ve crossed the line of civility so that leaves me only one course. To say this as I feel it. You write as a woman would write and you won?t post any pictures etc so therefore My supposition is that you are a woman ! I have no problem with that , in fact that would be great as you say there are too many meatheads on here already only it would be nice if you were above and aboard about it.
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epdavis7

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
The biggest hoax ever of young boys by bodybuilding is the need for extra protein. Men are really stupid. Look at all the vices that befall men, and the list is long

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying

==Scott==

Men are this and men are that. Hmmmm?
Women never fall for these vices?

Why do not you speak out about this?

Not many women here!

Go right ahead genius. List the vices for women!


Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying
and gossiping lol
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:

and is lying a vice?


Ask Brian Banks

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Nwlifter

https://www.health.harvard.edu/...ay-201506188096

The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein is a modest 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. The RDA is the amount of a nutrient you need to meet your basic nutritional requirements. In a sense, it?s the minimum amount you need to keep from getting sick ? not the specific amount you are supposed to eat every day.

Based on the totality of the research presented at the summit, Rodriguez estimates that taking in up to twice the RDA of protein ?is a safe and good range to aim for.? This equates roughly to 15% to 25% of total daily calories, although it could be above or below this range depending on your age, sex, and activity level.

(2x RDA is roughly 100+ grams a day for the average male or .72 per 1 lb of bodyweight)
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sgb2112

epdavis7 wrote:
I find myself agreeing with some points and disagreeing with others. Supplements are useless unless you have a deficiency- check (particularly bodybuilding supplements). You can?t force feed growth - check.

The truth about naturals & bulking.

https://youtu.be/edQnrzIDgzI

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epdavis7

sgb2112 wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
I find myself agreeing with some points and disagreeing with others. Supplements are useless unless you have a deficiency- check (particularly bodybuilding supplements). You can?t force feed growth - check.

The truth about naturals & bulking.

https://youtu.be/edQnrzIDgzI



Interesting thank you. My experience also. I was 64 pounds heavier at one time. I was strong, but fat and got winded going up a couple flights of stairs. I split my pants at work one day and decided enough is enough. I?m nowhere near as strong, but healthier and feel a lot better.. That was about 20 years ago.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:

== Scott==
Any of those listed above could be things women could do as well and there are a few women on here. Up until now I have pretty much sided with you on just about anything but I don?t appreciate you calling me genius !! You called another who disagreed with you a meathead. You?ve crossed the line of civility so that leaves me only one course. To say this as I feel it. You write as a woman would write and you won?t post any pictures etc so therefore My supposition is that you are a woman ! I have no problem with that , in fact that would be great as you say there are too many meatheads on here already only it would be nice if you were above and aboard about it.


You of all people complaining .... you whine like an old mule. On several occasions you have been disrespectful to me.

FYI

I am not interested in friendship here. You are no custodian here. You brought up women. Own it.
There is no evidence that over a substantial period of time, extra protein builds more muscle in a healthy manner. He is a meathead. He believes the same protein propaganda that has been
prevalent since muscle mags first came out.

The world health organization (WHO) recommends 5 % protein diets. There is a wide margin of safety built in. This is easily met without any worries whatsoever.
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Resultsbased

Alcohol
Tobacco
Promiscuity
Gambling
Drugs
Stealing
Crime
Lying
and gossiping lol

And claims of a 22" neck. I'm guessing 20 grams of protein/daily is enough to sustain this. PLEASE CONTINUE!
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
entsminger wrote:

== Scott==
Any of those listed above could be things women could do as well and there are a few women on here. Up until now I have pretty much sided with you on just about anything but I don?t appreciate you calling me genius !! You called another who disagreed with you a meathead. You?ve crossed the line of civility so that leaves me only one course. To say this as I feel it. You write as a woman would write and you won?t post any pictures etc so therefore My supposition is that you are a woman ! I have no problem with that , in fact that would be great as you say there are too many meatheads on here already only it would be nice if you were above and aboard about it.

You of all people complaining .... you whine like an old mule. On several occasions you have been disrespectful to me.

FYI

I am not interested in friendship here. You are no custodian here. You brought up women. Own it.
There is no evidence that over a substantial period of time, extra protein builds more muscle in a healthy manner. He is a meathead. He believes the same protein propaganda that has been
prevalent since muscle mags first came out.

The world health organization (WHO) recommends 5 % protein diets. There is a wide margin of safety built in. This is easily met without any worries whatsoever.


LOL ok .. well you go ahead and eat like a baby goat (20 grams of protein from veggies), doesn't affect me at all.

I'm a meathead.. ok sure. So RDA, and hundreds of careful studies, AND tons of annecdotal has found people are healthier and grow muscle better with enough (more then RDA even) protein. What is your 'non meathead' scientific evidence that 20 grams of veggie protein will increase protein synthesis and support myofibrillar hypertrophy as well as what the rest of the research shows?

tapping foot waiting here....


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