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Dr. Darden: Joe Means at Nautilus?
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AI1963

Dr. Darden:

I, like you, prefer the look of bodybuilders from the era when the Mister America contest was still highly coveted and regarded.

I knew Joe Means had been used as a model/exercise demonstrator by NAUTILUS but an interview online is the first mention of him actually training at NAUTILUS/per NAUTILUS protocol.

The interview spends too little time for my liking on the specifics of Means' actual training while at NAUTILUS.

Would you please recount what you can recall about Means, his specific training and any related anecdotes that come to mind?

Thank you.
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Ellington Darden

I put Joe Means through a couple of Nautilus workouts in the late 1970s. He trained hard and never faltered. Then, in 1980, I got him to come to the Nautilus plant in Lake Helen, and we spent a week taking photos of him for "The Nautilus Bodybuilding Book." He was a true gentleman and a pleasure to work with.

I don't remember any specifics about his favorite machines or routines. But I know he used Nautilus equipment in several gyms in South Carolina.

Ellington
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AI1963

Thank you very much.

Joe Means was interviewed by John Hansen for his "Bodybuilding Legends" podcast. Joe again touched only briefly on his NAUTILUS experience; his take seemed positive.

I wish the interviewers would have asked Joe to compare and contrast his training and results both prior to and with NAUTILUS.
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Average Al

AI1963 wrote:
Thank you very much.

Joe Means was interviewed by John Hansen for his "Bodybuilding Legends" podcast. Joe again touched only briefly on his NAUTILUS experience; his take seemed positive.

I wish the interviewers would have asked Joe to compare and contrast his training and results both prior to and with NAUTILUS.


Another interview from 2015 can be found on the internet.

He had been training and competing for a several years before trying Nautilus. He credits the switch to Nautilus with getting him a more cut look, leading to his best contest results in the 1976 Mr. America.

Later on, he made a visit to the Nautilus compound in Florida. He mentions doing leg extension with 7 or 8 drops in weight, and multiple exercises for the same muscle group. So not exactly a single set to failure.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Average Al wrote:
AI1963 wrote:
Thank you very much.

Joe Means was interviewed by John Hansen for his "Bodybuilding Legends" podcast. Joe again touched only briefly on his NAUTILUS experience; his take seemed positive.

I wish the interviewers would have asked Joe to compare and contrast his training and results both prior to and with NAUTILUS.

Another interview from 2015 can be found on the internet.

He had been training and competing for a several years before trying Nautilus. He credits the switch to Nautilus with getting him a more cut look, leading to his best contest results in the 1976 Mr. America.

Later on, he made a visit to the Nautilus compound in Florida. He mentions doing leg extension with 7 or 8 drops in weight, and multiple exercises for the same muscle group. So not exactly a single set to failure.


In my limited experience real bodybuilders like Joe Means that were willing to actually try Nautilus equipment in the manner Arthur Jones prescribed would achieve good progress,then " later on " left to themselves " they would drop the protocol and use Nautilus the same way they used to use barbells, many sets and even more exercises usually every day or twice a day every day.
Bingo the same equipment that allowed them to make excellent progress with much less time, now had the opposite effect. They got weaker and exhausted quickly and they lost size. So of course it wasn't their fault for misusing Nautilus it was the machines, and they bad mouthed the equipment as well as Jones protocol to anyone who would listen.
Example: Vince Gironda at first literally and I mean literally said that Arthur was a god and Nautilus equipment was the best most revolutionary equipment ever produced.
Not long afterwards he did a complete 180 writing columns in several different magazine's doing his best to discredit Arthur and his machines with the most ludicrous arguments you can imagine.
I know a lot of guys on this forum really believe in what Gironda wrote about bb but he was in reality a class A moron.
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Average Al

Bill Sekerak wrote:
Average Al wrote:

In my limited experience real bodybuilders like Joe Means that were willing to actually try Nautilus equipment in the manner Arthur Jones prescribed would achieve good progress,then " later on " left to themselves " they would drop the protocol and use Nautilus the same way they used to use barbells, many sets and even more exercises usually every day or twice a day every day.


I'm sure that happened with some bodybuilders. But that isn't what I took away from his interview. Here is the excerpt:

----

MD: Did you ever work with Arthur
Jones?

JM: Oh yes. Right after I worked as a
model for the nautilus book pictured in
this article, I met Ellington Darden at the Coastal USA show. El worked with
Arthur Jones down at his compound in Deland, Florida. They wanted me to come
down for a bit to work with them and use their nautilus equipment. SCLED allowed
me to go as I had time saved on my job. I met Arthur there- a very interesting
gentleman. Ellington Darden was also intriguing, he was a good bodybuilder and
held a PhD in nutrition and physical training.

I swear Jones would test me. You know he had one of the largest crocodile farms
in the world there...and the second largest individual crocodile in the world at the time. Everyday, the croc cages would have to be cleaned and the crocs fed.

Arthur asked me to simply come take a walk with him through the croc cages! Of
course, I did (laughs). The water was low. You must understand that when water is low, the crocs are docile. While we were walking about in there they turned the water on and the area quickly began filling with fresh water. Water= ferocity in crocodiles. We high-stepped it out of there! You see, Arthur liked to test people like that.

During my workouts there, yes, they'd push me very hard. We'd start with legs.
Another top bodybuilder was there and in the midst of leg training he got sick and
vomited. I completed it without getting sick. They had Mike Mentzer, Boyer Coe,
Casey Viator there. El said I was the hardest trainer the had ever had there.

They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

Nobody ever pushed me like this. Arthur would be right there looking on. I was a
competitive guy so I wanted to do well. Generally, the fellows at Deland didn't like bodybuilders because they would not listen to anything new.
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Bill Sekerak

California, USA

Average Al wrote:
Bill Sekerak wrote:
Average Al wrote:

In my limited experience real bodybuilders like Joe Means that were willing to actually try Nautilus equipment in the manner Arthur Jones prescribed would achieve good progress,then " later on " left to themselves " they would drop the protocol and use Nautilus the same way they used to use barbells, many sets and even more exercises usually every day or twice a day every day.


I'm sure that happened with some bodybuilders. But that isn't what I took away from his interview. Here is the excerpt:

----

MD: Did you ever work with Arthur
Jones?

JM: Oh yes. Right after I worked as a
model for the nautilus book pictured in
this article, I met Ellington Darden at the Coastal USA show. El worked with
Arthur Jones down at his compound in Deland, Florida. They wanted me to come
down for a bit to work with them and use their nautilus equipment. SCLED allowed
me to go as I had time saved on my job. I met Arthur there- a very interesting
gentleman. Ellington Darden was also intriguing, he was a good bodybuilder and
held a PhD in nutrition and physical training.

I swear Jones would test me. You know he had one of the largest crocodile farms
in the world there...and the second largest individual crocodile in the world at the time. Everyday, the croc cages would have to be cleaned and the crocs fed.

Arthur asked me to simply come take a walk with him through the croc cages! Of
course, I did (laughs). The water was low. You must understand that when water is low, the crocs are docile. While we were walking about in there they turned the water on and the area quickly began filling with fresh water. Water= ferocity in crocodiles. We high-stepped it out of there! You see, Arthur liked to test people like that.

During my workouts there, yes, they'd push me very hard. We'd start with legs.
Another top bodybuilder was there and in the midst of leg training he got sick and
vomited. I completed it without getting sick. They had Mike Mentzer, Boyer Coe,
Casey Viator there. El said I was the hardest trainer the had ever had there.

They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

Nobody ever pushed me like this. Arthur would be right there looking on. I was a
competitive guy so I wanted to do well. Generally, the fellows at Deland didn't like bodybuilders because they would not listen to anything new.


Where does he indicate that he continued using Nautilus equipment with the Arthur Jones protocol?
Wanna bet he went back to using a completely different protocol than what he used at Nautilus,probably the way he trained before he went to Fla?
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Resultsbased

Bill,

Have you watched the footage of Arthur training Boyer Coe?
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

manner Arthur Jones prescribed would achieve good progress,then " later on " left to themselves " they would drop the protocol and use Nautilus the same way they used to use barbells, many sets and even more exercises usually every day or twice a day every day.
Bingo the sa

== Scott==
I don?t think it?s fair to say all bodybuilders tried to use their old methods of training every day etc with Nautilus and then blamed the machines for no progress. Many did not return to their old high sets and everyday workouts , myself included. I think many just found it didn?t produce the great results of the hype. It worked but nothing magic happened once you got accustomed to it. It was just another good way to workout but they preferred their old way so they went back to it.
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Average Al

Bill Sekerak wrote:

Where does he indicate that he continued using Nautilus equipment with the Arthur Jones protocol?
Wanna bet he went back to using a completely different protocol than what he used at Nautilus,probably the way he trained before he went to Fla?


I can't speak for him. I am just relating what he said in an interview that he gave in 2015.

From that interview, it appears that he first started using Nautilus equipment around 1975, using a home gym that a friend had put together. A year later, he got his best placement ever in the 1976 Mr. America contest. He doesn't say what kind of training protocol he used, just that: "I really made much improvement with this system".

His encounters with Jones and Darden seem to have come later, after he was asked to model for the bodybuilding book. He doesn't provide a specific year for this. However, I will note that my copy of that book has a copyright date of 1982, and Means says that he stopped competing after the 1980 Mr. America.

The point of the excerpt was to highlight that, under the supervision of Jones, he ended up doing drop sets on the equipment, not single sets to failure as per the normal Nautilus protocol. Or so he says... I wasn't there.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.


why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?
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Crotalus

hit4me wrote:
why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?


There's no answer for that , it's whatever you want a 'set' to mean . Ask ten guys here and you'll have ten different answers , with most carved in stone to themselves.

One guy here asked me for my current routine and I PMed it to him. In a couple of my workouts I'll do drop sets , 4-5 drops. I told him one workout was about 30 minutes to complete 16 sets ... or more ... depending whether you count the break down set as an extended set or multiple sets .

Doesn't really matter because whether or not the total workout was was counted as 16 sets or 20 sets ( counting the break down as four sets ) I still got it done in the same amount of time ... so what's the difference other than what the individual decides a set is, right ?

More contractions in the same amount of time is always a good thing as I see it - as long as you recover.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.

why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?


==Scott==
What I should have said is that in my opinion adding drop sets after pushing a set to failure is more than what is usually called one set.First of all I doubt the weight can be dropped immediately and secondly would you still call it one set if any addition was done immediately? Like you do 8 reps to strict failure, then you add on drop reps, then forced reps, then 30 30 negatives then stutter reps etc. That in my opinion is reaching beyond a typical set to failure.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

entsminger wrote:
hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.

why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?


==Scott==
What I should have said is that in my opinion adding drop sets after pushing a set to failure is more than what is usually called one set.First of all I doubt the weight can be dropped immediately and secondly would you still call it one set if any addition was done immediately? Like you do 8 reps to strict failure, then you add on drop reps, then forced reps, then 30 30 negatives then stutter reps etc. That in my opinion is reaching beyond a typical set to failure.


it goes beyond the typical set to failure I agree, however, I would still call it one set.......but, in the end does it really matter what we call it, lol
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.

why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?


==Scott==
What I should have said is that in my opinion adding drop sets after pushing a set to failure is more than what is usually called one set.First of all I doubt the weight can be dropped immediately and secondly would you still call it one set if any addition was done immediately? Like you do 8 reps to strict failure, then you add on drop reps, then forced reps, then 30 30 negatives then stutter reps etc. That in my opinion is reaching beyond a typical set to failure.

it goes beyond the typical set to failure I agree, however, I would still call it one set.......but, in the end does it really matter what we call it, lol


==Scott==
I think it matters because if you don't mention the drop reps when talking about "one set" it gives a false impression of what one set was composed of.Those little add ons can make a huge difference.
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Average Al

hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
hit4me wrote:
entsminger wrote:
They liked me there because I was open minded. Most bodybuilders would argue
with them and let me tell you, that'd be the worst thing to do with Arthur Jones. I mean, yes. One set per bodypart? It was different. But this is how it would go. It'd be like a drop set. A heavy set of leg extensions, with 7-8 drops in weight in the same set. Then go to another exercise for the same thing. It was brutal.

==Scott==
This is what I was talking about in another thread, what did they really do? So it's said to be one set but then they add 7 or 8 drops of weight. That's no longer just one set.

why isn't drop sets considered one set? as long as you drop the weight immediately and continue then isn't that still one set?


==Scott==
What I should have said is that in my opinion adding drop sets after pushing a set to failure is more than what is usually called one set.First of all I doubt the weight can be dropped immediately and secondly would you still call it one set if any addition was done immediately? Like you do 8 reps to strict failure, then you add on drop reps, then forced reps, then 30 30 negatives then stutter reps etc. That in my opinion is reaching beyond a typical set to failure.

it goes beyond the typical set to failure I agree, however, I would still call it one set.......but, in the end does it really matter what we call it, lol


Regardless of what you call it, I wonder if Jones ever recommended drop sets in any of his writings? If not, why was it happening when Means was training at that facility? Did he just happen to participate in an experiment that was later judged ineffective? Or is this an example of Jones doing something different in private than what he was recommending in public?
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Lioncourt

Average Al wrote:

Regardless of what you call it, I wonder if Jones ever recommended drop sets in any of his writings? If not, why was it happening when Means was training at that facility? Did he just happen to participate in an experiment that was later judged ineffective? Or is this an example of Jones doing something different in private than what he was recommending in public?


As I recall from The New HIT when Ellington described the workouts Arthur put Sergio through he had him doing drop sets on squats.
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Resultsbased

Its pretty clear by watching Jones train Boyer Coe and others that he did NOT believe in slow training.
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AndyMitch

A typical (proper) Nautilus (Jones) workout lasts between 20~30 minutes what happens in that time is irrelevant it?s s the ?work? that?s important and quite difficult to maintain if you don?t give yourself time to recover between workouts, we all fall into the trap (it feels great do more) and I don?t believe the well known body builders where (are) any different to us in this case.

In terms of multiple sets I think that?s a requirement in multi joint barbell work and in some single joint exercises.

On my nautilus - one set is all I can muster with the exception of the occasional infermetric stuff.

I have assisted a lot of people in their workouts and they are all the same more often than not.

They work a lot harder when I am pushing them.
They love it, and they make the mistake of sneaking in more than they should, we forget how quickly Arthurs methodology add muscle, sometimes it is mind blowing I have seen it in people i have worked with.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Where does he indicate that he continued using Nautilus equipment with the Arthur Jones protocol?
Wanna bet he went back to using a completely different protocol than what he used at Nautilus,probably the way he trained before he went to Fla?

==Scott==
Was just talking to a fellow at work who's wife was a professional bodybuilder years ago and Nautilus facilities came into the discussion. As usual the topic about how much she used Nautilus came up and as usual she pretty quickly returned to free weights after a short trial.The funny part of the talk was when he said he spent time with the creator of Nautilus, Ellington Darden. He seems to have forgot one other person, ha ha!
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