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John Little's Hinges
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sirloin

Hey TS,

No worries bud, am out in the countryside, i know all about wifi cutting out lol.

What i will say about JL is this...

Im not a fan of how hes marketed his books / training methods, or his dietary advice, HOWEVER i believe his intentions are overall good. I.e., trying to find ways of getting the most out of your training in as little time possible, that training should be a mere adjunct to ones life...not the other way around.

Hes brought up a lot of what the pioneering physiologists had to say about strength training which made me rethink everything id learn't up until that point, and he hasnt been afraid to take the path of maximuim resistance when offering up idea's / methods that are different to conventional wisdom. For that i give him the most credit.
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accountdeleted

Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.


I hear you on this. There is a point where it is just too heavy regardless of range/leverage. There were times where I really tried to pile on the weight in stronger/leverage advantaged ranges. I will say that I seem to be able to get a better mind/muscle connection in more leverage advantaged ranges of certain exercises. But also I'm probably using a more conservative range than I use to and paying more attention to the load not getting to heavy. Probably getting kind of rambly here but I guess feel kinda trumps all for me. I still get that desire though to want to keep adding more weight. But I hear you on contradictions of load/weight bearing down on the body.
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accountdeleted

sirloin wrote:
Hey TS,

No worries bud, am out in the countryside, i know all about wifi cutting out lol.

What i will say about JL is this...

Im not a fan of how hes marketed his books / training methods, or his dietary advice, HOWEVER i believe his intentions are overall good. I.e., trying to find ways of getting the most out of your training in as little time possible, that training should be a mere adjunct to ones life...not the other way around.

Hes brought up a lot of what the pioneering physiologists had to say about strength training which made me rethink everything id learn't up until that point, and he hasnt been afraid to take the path of maximuim resistance when offering up idea's / methods that are different to conventional wisdom. For that i give him the most credit.


My friend I strongly agree with what you say here. While I know the body needs time to recover, the idea of missing out on doing other things because I'm "recovering" seems backwards to me, but to each thier own of course. If I train to be stronger and healthier but spend my time between training always recovering, when do I get to enjoy this strength I've built?!

As far as questioning conventional wisdom. I'm all for somebody doing this. On one hand you could end up spending all your time questioning lol. But if something is grounded in truth it's gonna be hard to shake it's foundation's anyway.
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Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.
Open User Options Menu

Chris H

Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.


Great post, thanks
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sirloin

Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.


Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/PbK7YxjVbSc
Open User Options Menu

sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.


Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!
Open User Options Menu

Nwlifter

sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.

Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/...YxjVbSc


thanks,
True, good point on the TB block, some exercises lend to less than full and are proper that way.
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Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.

Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/...YxjVbSc


yeah i agree, - rack pulls - straight bar or trap bar are suited to partials/statics.
I do believe however that BP or floor press can benefit from the same/similar treatment once in a while.
Cherry on top so to speak, ensuring all the connective tissues {tendons/ligaments} become steel cables, or have i swallowed Little and Sisco's cool aid pill - ?
Open User Options Menu

Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.

Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!


for several years in my garage gym i performed JL's 3 way {3 week} split, utilising a combo of barbell statics and machine MC.
Got functionally silly strong.
No injuries despite the loads, but for hypertrophy negligible.
Open User Options Menu

sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.

Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/PbK7YxjVbSc

yeah i agree, - rack pulls - straight bar or trap bar are suited to partials/statics.
I do believe however that BP or floor press can benefit from the same/similar treatment once in a while.
Cherry on top so to speak, ensuring all the connective tissues {tendons/ligaments} become steel cables, or have i swallowed Little and Sisco's cool aid pill - ?


Haha, i took the same pill...then spat it out when no one was watching:))
Just my opinion, but i think the idea of strengthing connective tissues, joints and bones from locking out or near lockout on presses is something of an old wives tale. I know it didnt agree nor help with my bad shoulder tendon when i tried it several years ago. I can however say i improved my tendon strength with MCT, given that your contracting hard against the resistance rather than just supporting it resistance. Just like an arm wrestler strengthens their tendons.
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sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.

Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!

for several years in my garage gym i performed JL's 3 way {3 week} split, utilising a combo of barbell statics and machine MC.
Got functionally silly strong.
No injuries despite the loads, but for hypertrophy negligible.


Yeap, same here, i just salt in MCT now and then, nice for a change of pace. But, not enough volume and freq to optimize size gains. (If thats you goal, HST isnt my thing.)

Best
Rob
Open User Options Menu

Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.

Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/PbK7YxjVbSc

yeah i agree, - rack pulls - straight bar or trap bar are suited to partials/statics.
I do believe however that BP or floor press can benefit from the same/similar treatment once in a while.
Cherry on top so to speak, ensuring all the connective tissues {tendons/ligaments} become steel cables, or have i swallowed Little and Sisco's cool aid pill - ?


Haha, i took the same pill...then spat it out when no one was watching:))
Just my opinion, but i think the idea of strengthing connective tissues, joints and bones from locking out or near lockout on presses is something of an old wives tale. I know it didnt agree nor help with my bad shoulder tendon when i tried it several years ago. I can however say i improved my tendon strength with MCT, given that your contracting hard against the resistance rather than just supporting it resistance. Just like an arm wrestler strengthens their tendons.


the arm wrestling analogy certainly resonates.
I do JL's MC on pulldowns with his Max straps and rate it as my best lat/upper back exercise

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Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.

Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!

for several years in my garage gym i performed JL's 3 way {3 week} split, utilising a combo of barbell statics and machine MC.
Got functionally silly strong.
No injuries despite the loads, but for hypertrophy negligible.

Yeap, same here, i just salt in MCT now and then, nice for a change of pace. But, not enough volume and freq to optimize size gains. (If thats you goal, HST isnt my thing.)

Best
Rob


yeah, but your a big unit anyway, whereas 'i'm a lampost. I was sure this was my route to swole - lol
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sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
What's odd and contradictory, is putting out information on joint health, then advocating the use of extremely high loads in the strongest range (where strength is only higher due to leverage advantages, but assuming the muscle sees the higher load). This puts a ton (almost literally) of load on the joint and no more load on the muscle, where using less load in the weaker range would load the joint much less, but due to less leverage advantages, still apply the same load to the muscle.
Missing the whole concept that external load and external work is NOT the same as internal (muscle) load and work indicates a big misunderstanding of many things.

Indeed a good post. Preforming 2-3" near lockout presses, whether its dips, overhead, benches or leg, and 2-3" hammer rows (as pictured) or pulldowns aint gonna do shit...bar piss off gym owners and other members.
The only expection id say is a rack pull or trap bar block pull. Probably best / safer to not preform it with a half ton or more though, rather a weight you can still lift from the floor or below the knee, preform more reps or longer holding times, like i filmed last month at the masters wsm...
https://youtu.be/PbK7YxjVbSc

yeah i agree, - rack pulls - straight bar or trap bar are suited to partials/statics.
I do believe however that BP or floor press can benefit from the same/similar treatment once in a while.
Cherry on top so to speak, ensuring all the connective tissues {tendons/ligaments} become steel cables, or have i swallowed Little and Sisco's cool aid pill - ?


Haha, i took the same pill...then spat it out when no one was watching:))
Just my opinion, but i think the idea of strengthing connective tissues, joints and bones from locking out or near lockout on presses is something of an old wives tale. I know it didnt agree nor help with my bad shoulder tendon when i tried it several years ago. I can however say i improved my tendon strength with MCT, given that your contracting hard against the resistance rather than just supporting it resistance. Just like an arm wrestler strengthens their tendons.

the arm wrestling analogy certainly resonates.
I do JL's MC on pulldowns with his Max straps and rate it as my best lat/upper back exercise



Always wanted a set of those bad boys, they where always sold out and then stopped making them. For me nothing has thickend up back like partial deads (trap bar block pulls, rack pulls, trap bar static holds), and explosive rows.
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sirloin

Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.

Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!

for several years in my garage gym i performed JL's 3 way {3 week} split, utilising a combo of barbell statics and machine MC.
Got functionally silly strong.
No injuries despite the loads, but for hypertrophy negligible.

Yeap, same here, i just salt in MCT now and then, nice for a change of pace. But, not enough volume and freq to optimize size gains. (If thats you goal, HST isnt my thing.)

Best
Rob

yeah, but your a big unit anyway, whereas 'i'm a lampost. I was sure this was my route to swole - lol


Lamposts are solid, i recall walking into one lol.
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Chris H

sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
sirloin wrote:
Chris H wrote:
this is the second installment of the "is John Little"- right series" - lol

All jokes aside, this is a serious question.

Arthur Jones, said of the joints and lifting, that it was akin to pulling a rope over a rock, and hence over time wear and tear would occur.
A reason therefore to support the minimum dose for exercise etc etc

John Little in his new book refers to the joints as hinges and postulates on how many "openings" those joints have in them - I.E - Shelf life.

Are they right, or are they making incorrect assumptions even though based on logical evaluation.

The rope and rock analogy may be flawed as the rope and rock in question Is biological and hence lubricated and heals and regenerates at least to an extent.
Similarly for the hinge analogy.

Also as life span is finite in this context, is the wear and tear concern espoused by HIT guru's valid or over-blown.

I'm not dismissing the position, and i am a firm supporter of proper form, appropriate exercise selection, bio-mechanics and obviously an exercise dose response that meets ones goals, but has the over training, over reaching, injury prevention HIT position gone to far ?

Hey bud,

Yes wear and tear, injury pervention, overtraining etc are important, but indeed there are HIT guru's / salesman that have taken things too far. As you know, theres even indivduals out there claiming unbelievable gains from preforming one set of partial deads every 3-6 months lol.
Im convinced the writers / salesman that have taken things too far dont actually like training, one stated years ago in an interview with Tony Robbins, "am someone who never actually liked being in a gym, i can think of 15-20 places id rather be". Mike Mentzer, did he even train? I heard it said he didnt train due to having back pain...as someone with a messed up back that does train, i dont buy it!

John Little stated in a coperate warrior interview a few years ago, that training had ceased to be a passion of his, he said he spends just 10 minutes per week training to get some health benefits, in the same interview, he admitted to binge drinking.

These same writers / salesman over stress wear and tear / over training etc as a way to get people on board with their minimalistic way of thinking. Admittedly, when i was working 50-60 hours a weeks in a physically taxing jobs, this kind of minimalistic appoarch had its place.
But as soon as i had more time and energy on my hands, i upped my training frequency and volume considerably, and for that, am much stronger, have less back pain and have better health makers.

Best
Rab




Hi Mate,

i'd like to think with JL that he is just going to the extreme to get over a point.
I.E - he may be right in certain circumstances, where one excessively exercises or has underlying issues, but for the majority i feel the juries out.

I think Mr Winchester must be down to 1 set every 9 months now - lol

After reading JLs comments after his second coperate warrior interview, and from what hes said in the past. JL clearly feels he wasted a good portion of his youth and missed out following the advice of the day / being mislead (the Arnold 6 days a week, 4hrs a day, lots of supplements etc)....of course it didnt stop him using steriod using bodybuilders and elite athletes to help sell his own "revolutionary" training systems.

Hes essentially went from one extreme to the complete other, not just with volume and frequency, but with his view of not moving through "positions of disadvanged leverage" to spare the joints / connective tissues.
I do like the odd static workout or two now and then, but i feel training through a pratical / effective ROM is for the most part the best way forward, i can think of many scenario's where being stronger in "positions of disadvanged leverage" are of benefit.
One example would be getting out of a bath, youve pretty much to do a deadstart dip, and for this reason many of people (especially the eldery) cant even enjoy having a bath.


Best
Rab




think that's a fair observation of JL, however the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle/
Love heavy statics too, but wonder if indeed its safe in context of JL's position to load a joint repeatedly at a certain/same angle, particularly under heavy load.
Think that's why JL moved away from Sisco however.

Thats true (same joint angles etc). Though if you follow the advanced MCT 3 way split for example, you dont preform the same exercise again for 21-30 days, possibly longer. So i dont see it being a major issue. If you where to cycle max pyramid (imo a watered down version of max contraction) where lighter loads are employed, then the joints should be ok. From my own experience of MCT, its extremely important to have an experienced / switched on training partner when using max static holds on isolation exercises, the last thing you need is a idiot training partner that helps you into the contracted position then just "drops" the resistance on ya. One donut dropped 180kg on me in the top contracted position of a leg extension, it took several weeks for my knee to be right again...never again!

for several years in my garage gym i performed JL's 3 way {3 week} split, utilising a combo of barbell statics and machine MC.
Got functionally silly strong.
No injuries despite the loads, but for hypertrophy negligible.

Yeap, same here, i just salt in MCT now and then, nice for a change of pace. But, not enough volume and freq to optimize size gains. (If thats you goal, HST isnt my thing.)

Best
Rob

yeah, but your a big unit anyway, whereas 'i'm a lampost. I was sure this was my route to swole - lol


Lamposts are solid, i recall walking into one lol.


that's very kind Rob, i shall remember that next time calls me a lanky bar-steward - lol
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