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'Efficient' Exercise vs 'Efficacious' Exercise
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Equity

The idea that H.I.T. saves time and produces results is something we all keep hearing; that it's EFFICIENT. But at the end of the day aren't most of us after maximum results?

Shouldn't the emphasis be on EFFICACY?

efficient:

(of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.

efficacy:

the ability to produce a desired or intended result.

Regards.

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epdavis7

Equity wrote:
The idea that H.I.T. saves time and produces results is something we all keep hearing; that it's EFFICIENT. But at the end of the day aren't most of us after maximum results?

Shouldn't the emphasis be on EFFICACY?

efficient:

(of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.

efficacy:

the ability to produce a desired or intended result.

Regards.



I think it depends on how you define results. Hypertrophy? Strength? Health? To help condition and provide resiliency for sport and physical activity? A couch potato who trains primarily for bodybuilding would have a different approach from someone like myself who trains in self defense, runs and is extremely physically active in general. I don't want nor desire to train as much as someone who is bodybuilding and is sedentary apart from that. I already do a shit ton of activity. I don't need more. A minimal versus maximal HIT prescription fits the bill for what I want it to do.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
In my younger days when I had more time to waste and I really enjoyed working out I didn't really care how long I was working out as I really enjoyed it but these days I have other things to do that are more important and admittedly I'm much more lazy now so I just want to get in and out in the quickest time.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Equity wrote:
The idea that H.I.T. saves time and produces results is something we all keep hearing; that it's EFFICIENT. But at the end of the day aren't most of us after maximum results?

Shouldn't the emphasis be on EFFICACY?

efficient:

(of a system or machine) achieving maximum productivity with minimum wasted effort or expense.

efficacy:

the ability to produce a desired or intended result.

Regards.



then the question is "what is the desired or intended result"

at 55 years old, I no longer have the desire to achieve the result I wanted when I was 25, therefore, efficiency works for me

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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
In the good old days I can think of nothing I'd rather do than workout on my Nautilus machines, gains or no gains.I never really cared if I made substantial gains, in fact most of the time I stagnated but it was great fun to do. I obsessed over my machines and working out for a long long time but these days I look at my long camera lenses I use to shoot wildlife and then I look at my Nautilus machines sitting there and I have a choice to do one or the other and lately the camera wins out and working out happens later if at all.
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Crotalus

The answer to all of this for myself became MORE work but in the same, limited amount of time ... Brian Johnson's "High Density Training" . More contractions, shorter rest by using various Zones, cluster sets, rest pause, etc. etc.

Still brief at around 10 minutes ( + - ) per body part. Plenty of work for the muscles along with plenty of recovery time.
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spud

Over on the "Doug Holland is on Instagram" thread frostyF, who's recently been to see DOug and train with him wrote this:

frostyF wrote:
Not bad for a 60 year old who works out twice a week for three minutes to nine minutes per workout.


Now in that 3 to 9 minutes a week, Dioug Holland is achieving more in terms of strength, muscle, health, vitality, longevity and fitness than all the CrossFit, P90X, spin bikes, Jazzercise bullsht that goes on out there:

https://www.youtube.com/...h?v=O3udbWWaR7Q

In that respect, basic HIT, as much as we moan about it not making us all massively muscular is light years ahead of anything else, and would be the single best possible public health intervention on the planet, especially for anyone over the age of 50.

I think if you want to learn how to get bigger muscles once a basica HIT approach has stagnated, then Brain Johnston's books on Zone Training, Variation and High Density Training are great. Vince Gironda has some stuff you can learn from.

It basically all boils down to reps that are still perfectly safe but slightly faster than HIT usually talks about. Lots of them performed in a short space of time (still very short rest intervals). Only going to failure accidentally or occasionally i.e. perhaps only failure on 1 or 2 exercises per workout, and maybe not even doing that every session. The emphasis is very much on FEEL and not poundage.

Even if you train like this I couldn't imagine that you'd be training more than 30 minutes, 3 times a week. In my mind that still falls under the HIT umbrella in terms of being brief an infrequent.

It's definitely still a lot more brief than pretty much everything else out there.

My mother is 70 and is suffer from the negative effects of sarcopenia as well as an ongoing battle with cancer. She's very weak.

Here in the UK, HIT gyms/facilities are very rare. There might be 10 in the whole country.

If we had a SuperSlow facility locally, I wouldn't bother with it. I couldn't stand it. But would I encourage my Mum to go to it?

Short answer: FCK YES.

It would be the single best thing she could do for her increasingly frail body. I wouldn't have to worry about her being injured. She'd train for about 10 minutes a week and within a few months she'd feel about 10-15 years younger.

Talking about the time efficiency of training, I've been training at home for 3 years now, because the thought of training at a gym wherre I would have to drive 20-25 minutes each way to perform a 30 minute workout doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't matter how time efficient the actually training is, I'm still taking a minimum of 90 minutes to do the whole thing if the traffic is good. If the traffic is bad then it's easily 2 hours.

If you want time efficient training, whilst the answer isn't necessarily textbook HIT. The answer is definitely HOME GYM.

Anyone who is over the age of 40 and in good shape either has a home gym, owns a gym, works at a gym or works very near a gym.

There are very few people in good shape over the age of 40 who make a specific car journey to get to a gym that is full of other people messing about doing unproductive, inefficient and unsafe activities. It just doesn't happen.
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epdavis7

spud wrote:
Talking about the time efficiency of training, I've been training at home for 3 years now, because the thought of training at a gym wherre I would have to drive 20-25 minutes each way to perform a 30 minute workout doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't matter how time efficient the actually training is, I'm still taking a minimum of 90 minutes to do the whole thing if the traffic is good. If the traffic is bad then it's easily 2 hours.

If you want time efficient training, whilst the answer isn't necessarily textbook HIT. The answer is definitely HOME GYM.

Anyone who is over the age of 40 and in good shape either has a home gym, owns a gym, works at a gym or works very near a gym.

There are very few people in good shape over the age of 40 who make a specific car journey to get to a gym that is full of other people messing about doing unproductive, inefficient and unsafe activities. It just doesn't happen.


Home gym all the way for me. My weight workouts are 12-15 minutes. I have everything prestaged for myself. If I had to drive to a gym I wouldn't do it. I got too much shit to do. Its the same with running. I'll drive somewhere for a race, but for training its out the front door and get to it. I'm not driving to a gym to run on a treadmill.
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epdavis7

spud wrote:
Talking about the time efficiency of training, I've been training at home for 3 years now, because the thought of training at a gym wherre I would have to drive 20-25 minutes each way to perform a 30 minute workout doesn't sit right with me. It doesn't matter how time efficient the actually training is, I'm still taking a minimum of 90 minutes to do the whole thing if the traffic is good. If the traffic is bad then it's easily 2 hours.

If you want time efficient training, whilst the answer isn't necessarily textbook HIT. The answer is definitely HOME GYM.

Anyone who is over the age of 40 and in good shape either has a home gym, owns a gym, works at a gym or works very near a gym.

There are very few people in good shape over the age of 40 who make a specific car journey to get to a gym that is full of other people messing about doing unproductive, inefficient and unsafe activities. It just doesn't happen.


Home gym all the way for me. My weight workouts are 12-15 minutes. I have everything prestaged for myself. If I had to drive to a gym I wouldn't do it. I got too much shit to do. Its the same with running. I'll drive somewhere for a race, but for training its out the front door and get to it. I'm not driving to a gym to run on a treadmill.
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epdavis7

For some people being at the gym is their social life. Its not for me, never has been.
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Nwlifter

The only thing is... the idea of HIT is that it's the same results in less time. So not a compromise in efficacious-ey, if the results aren't as good then it would be a choice between the two, but it seems efficient implies equal outcomes?
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spud

epdavis7 wrote:
Home gym all the way for me. My weight workouts are 12-15 minutes. I have everything prestaged for myself. If I had to drive to a gym I wouldn't do it. I got too much shit to do. Its the same with running. I'll drive somewhere for a race, but for training its out the front door and get to it. I'm not driving to a gym to run on a treadmill.


You're right. The reality is, people have other stuff going on. For most people that aren't bodybuilders, fitness models, powerlifters, strongmen or professional athletes, training is a small part of their life, not the majority of their life.

The biggest barrier to people getting in and staying in shape is time. Yes, Laziness plays a factor, but I'm betting that laziness would diminish greatly if people knew they could get results beyond their expectations in 30 minutes or less, once or twice a week.

My example of the 20-25 minute drive before and after a 30 minute workout was a little too positive. I trained at the gym I have in mind for about 3 years, twice a week.

It was more like a 25-30 minute drive each way, and the workouts were more like 45-60 minutes because of having to wait for other people to finish on the equipment I wanted to use, which was most of the time, or because once I'd finished squatting or deadlifting I'd have to put the bar and plates away immediately. I couldn't leave it until the end of my workout. That slows things down massively.

That's fair enough, but it just goes to show that time efficient training in commercial gyms is not possible unless you go at really, really odd hours, which you probably can't because you lead a normal life which is busy and full of a variety of other demands on your time.

This is actually a much bigger barrier to training in a HIT fashion in a commercial gym than the HIT aficionados realise, but that's because they don't want to talk about it and put people off the idea they're selling by explaining the harsh reality.
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sirloin

epdavis7 wrote:
For some people being at the gym is their social life. Its not for me, never has been.


Yet you post hundreds of times on a hit social media forum lol.
Ive my own home gym, but also a gym membership at a private strongman gym, go for a wee change, but also to be inspired, and to share idea's with like minded people.

Same with anything, running, cycling swimming, golf, martial arts clubs etc. Brings people together.
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Equity

Nwlifter wrote:
The only thing is... the idea of HIT is that it's the same results in less time. So not a compromise in efficacious-ey, if the results aren't as good then it would be a choice between the two, but it seems efficient implies equal outcomes?


But sometimes H.I.T. training doesn't save time. If you are wasted from 6 compound movements for the next 3 days then that takes away from energy for other life activities. So therefore if (e.g. 4 sets of ten hard but not all out) produces the same gains as some form of H.I.T. workout that takes a quarter of the time to do but 2 days longer before you 'feel well enough' to do other activities; including mental ones (no joke brain fuzz next day). Then the training needs evaluating.

Training and how if fits around daily living need to be in check. Hovever the boast of some H.I.T. proponents that 'Maximum' Bodyduilding (not strength,metabolic cond, fitness etc.) can be produced in 15 minutes full body is absurd. Plus it kills you for the best part of the week where you can't enjoy the rest of life.

Regards.
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Nwlifter

Equity wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
The only thing is... the idea of HIT is that it's the same results in less time. So not a compromise in efficacious-ey, if the results aren't as good then it would be a choice between the two, but it seems efficient implies equal outcomes?

But sometimes H.I.T. training doesn't save time. If you are wasted from 6 compound movements for the next 3 days then that takes away from energy for other life activities. So therefore if (i.e. 4 sets of ten hard but not all out) produces the same gains as some form of H.I.T. workout that takes a quarter of the time to do but 2 days longer before you 'feel well enough' to do other activities; including mental ones (no joke brain fuzz next day). Then the training needs evaluating.

Training and how if fits around daily living need to be in check. Hovever the boast of some H.I.T. proponents that 'Maximum' Bodyduilding (not strength,metabolic cond, fitness etc.) can be produced in 15 minutes full body is absurd. Plus it kills you for the best part of the week where you can't enjoy the rest of life.

Regards.


Right yes, I was just posting 'the idea' and why it's said to be efficient.

In reality, I can do 15 + sets Gironda style in 20 minutes, or 5 HIT sets with all the time between laying on the floor trying to see if I'm going to die or not lol
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Equity

Nwlifter wrote:
Equity wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
The only thing is... the idea of HIT is that it's the same results in less time. So not a compromise in efficacious-ey, if the results aren't as good then it would be a choice between the two, but it seems efficient implies equal outcomes?

But sometimes H.I.T. training doesn't save time. If you are wasted from 6 compound movements for the next 3 days then that takes away from energy for other life activities. So therefore if (i.e. 4 sets of ten hard but not all out) produces the same gains as some form of H.I.T. workout that takes a quarter of the time to do but 2 days longer before you 'feel well enough' to do other activities; including mental ones (no joke brain fuzz next day). Then the training needs evaluating.

Training and how if fits around daily living need to be in check. Hovever the boast of some H.I.T. proponents that 'Maximum' Bodyduilding (not strength,metabolic cond, fitness etc.) can be produced in 15 minutes full body is absurd. Plus it kills you for the best part of the week where you can't enjoy the rest of life.

Regards.

Right yes, I was just posting 'the idea' and why it's said to be efficient.

In reality, I can do 15 + sets Gironda style in 20 minutes, or 5 HIT sets with all the time between laying on the floor trying to see if I'm going to die or not lol


I know this subject has cropped up many times before and is multi-faceted. Especially the systemic drain phenomenom.

I was trying in the original post to come at it at a different angle; inspired by but not exactly the same as someone posted on another thread.

Regards.


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epdavis7

sirloin wrote:
epdavis7 wrote:
For some people being at the gym is their social life. Its not for me, never has been.

Yet you post hundreds of times on a hit social media forum lol.
Ive my own home gym, but also a gym membership at a private strongman gym, go for a wee change, but also to be inspired, and to share idea's with like minded people.

Same with anything, running, cycling swimming, golf, martial arts clubs etc. Brings people together.


Lol...you got me there.
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Chris H

Equity wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
The only thing is... the idea of HIT is that it's the same results in less time. So not a compromise in efficacious-ey, if the results aren't as good then it would be a choice between the two, but it seems efficient implies equal outcomes?

But sometimes H.I.T. training doesn't save time. If you are wasted from 6 compound movements for the next 3 days then that takes away from energy for other life activities. So therefore if (i.e. 4 sets of ten hard but not all out) produces the same gains as some form of H.I.T. workout that takes a quarter of the time to do but 2 days longer before you 'feel well enough' to do other activities; including mental ones (no joke brain fuzz next day). Then the training needs evaluating.

Training and how if fits around daily living need to be in check. Hovever the boast of some H.I.T. proponents that 'Maximum' Bodyduilding (not strength,metabolic cond, fitness etc.) can be produced in 15 minutes full body is absurd. Plus it kills you for the best part of the week where you can't enjoy the rest of life.

Regards.


Max BB, can be produced in 15 mins fb is absurd - Agreed,

although for years i did train once a week for about an hour, weights, and HIT cardio and was in good shape, and hence logic told me it was optimal, where in reality it was much closer to maintenance tan improvement

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S.M.Punisher

Equity wrote:
But sometimes H.I.T. training doesn't save time. If you are wasted from 6 compound movements for the next 3 days then that takes away from energy for other life activities. So therefore if (i.e. 4 sets of ten hard but not all out) produces the same gains as some form of H.I.T. workout that takes a quarter of the time to do but 2 days longer before you 'feel well enough' to do other activities; including mental ones (no joke brain fuzz next day). Then the training needs evaluating.


It seems "high-intensity" training has become thought to mean "high self-abuse" training. Any of the above effects mean overtraining in my opinion. You should be able to give a very brief, very intense effort and still feel fresh as a daisy afterwards (except if you're just starting a routine or have never experienced proper high intensity before).

I'm not saying the gruelling full-body workouts aren't proper HIT; only that past a certain point in development (relative to one's genetic potential) they may become either counterproductive or completely unnecessary--that is, once someone gets so good (via neural efficiency) at generating intensity, that very little quantity of that intensity is desirable before all the negative effects reflect not so much the training but a war on the body.
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Chris H

@ Spud,

i work with 2 Guys, 56 and 59 respectively who travel a fair distance to lift, 4/5 days a week, but early morning - 5.30 - 6.00am before work, and do the same when not at work.
They will continue this effectively forever, so would i, and i hate commercial gyms, as full of wankers.
I have my home garage gym, but just under 5 years ago moved, house, no garage, but a big overgrown garden. Took me 4/5 months to sort the garden and other stuff, and build a new garage. Trained 1x per week at one of those total gym franchises, machine circuit at 6.30am for half an hour a pop, that's all i could tolerate. Even at that time in the morning their were many idiots in attendance, dropping dumb bells and weight stacks with faint regard for other gym users and the effect on the equipment. I had several conversations, one particular idiot was near to getting dropped as per the dumb bell he let go in mid press.
However despite all that, as long as i am able to lift, i would travel and train in a commercial gym, if i had no facility for a home gym.
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Crotalus

There are idiots where I train too but I could never let that get in the way of using the great equipment my gym provides.

The biggest thing that gets on my nerves at the gym are people on their phones while training ; but that's my problem. I have a big thing with the phone / social media addiction people have anyway, whether in the gym or market.

But if I let that shit bother me to the point of interfering with my training and chasing me out of a great gym, it's on me not them.

I won't let what someone else is doing bother me to that extent.





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HeavyHitter32

The last time I was in a gym was 2004 before the cell phone addiction...been training at home since. Glad I don't have to deal with that.
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Chris H

Crotalus wrote:
There are idiots where I train too but I could never let that get in the way of using the great equipment my gym provides.

The biggest thing that gets on my nerves at the gym are people on their phones while training ; but that's my problem. I have a big thing with the phone / social media addiction people have anyway, whether in the gym or market.

But if I let that shit bother me to the point of interfering with my training and chasing me out of a great gym, it's on me not them.

I won't let what someone else is doing bother me to that extent.







yep the cell phone addiction is a serious illness ?

Sleep walking into A.I
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hit4me

Florida, USA

Chris H wrote:
Crotalus wrote:
There are idiots where I train too but I could never let that get in the way of using the great equipment my gym provides.

The biggest thing that gets on my nerves at the gym are people on their phones while training ; but that's my problem. I have a big thing with the phone / social media addiction people have anyway, whether in the gym or market.

But if I let that shit bother me to the point of interfering with my training and chasing me out of a great gym, it's on me not them.

I won't let what someone else is doing bother me to that extent.







yep the cell phone addiction is a serious illness ?

Sleep walking into A.I


if Gironda was still alive, he would throw the cell phone idiots out of his gym
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Crotalus

hit4me wrote:
if Gironda was still alive, he would throw the cell phone idiots out of his gym


My gym recently has put up a suggestion box on the counter where you sign in. I guess it's intended for normal people asking for normal things .

Three days a week before my workout my suggestion goes in the box ;

" NO CELL PHONES ALLOWED IN THE GYM "

It'll never happen ... taking away the fuckin cell phones would cause more of an uproar than if they said all good looking women must train wearing only bra and panties.
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