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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
You can clearly see that Fred built 1.7 pounds of muscle from June 2016 to March 2019. If the claims of a total of 14 pounds of muscle built are to be believed, then simple math suggests that he built another 12.3 pounds of muscle from somewhere between 12 March 2019 to 31 July 2019 at the latest.

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.


I'm listening to that podcast, so far he's said months of I.F. with extra protein, he lost a bunch of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle. that fits the before and after photos.
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Average Al

He recently announced that he got a book deal, for a book that will focus on fasting and diet.

Will he be more rigorous with his numbers in the book? Or will he cherry pick data points for the most dramatic claims? I guess we will have to wait and see.
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Average Al

Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Questions,

1) is turning on growth hormone and subsequently IGF wise at his age?

2) why the partial use of the World Health Organization guidelines (BMI) and ignore WHO guidelines on protein(5 percent)?


3) Why high protein? A corresponding high carbohydrate diet will fill glycogen storage in the muscles for even better body composition results, and insulin is the primary anabolic hormone. The nitrogen molecule on excessive protein can not be stored in the body and must be excreted.

Went through that huge bloated WHO protein PDF..
they say for a healthy stable person
"0.83 g/kg per day of protein with a protein digestibility-corrected amino acid score value of 1.0"
So a 180 lb guy that'd be 68 grams a day and they point out, that's high quality protein (PDCA of 1.0, lots in that long paper about digestion and quality of proteins)
Of course, we know now for sure from many studies that more protein than that, WILL for SURE increase muscle mass gains.





WHO recommendations for protein are aimed at preventing dietary deficiencies. Less is known about the protein intake which is optimal for health. That might be higher than the minimum defined by WHO.

Clearly Fred is making a statement with his results: he is leaner than he needs to be for health purposes; it is likely that he also wants to carry as much muscle as possible, and that is facilitated by higher protein intake.

But what about longevity? Probably too early to say for sure that too much protein is a negative. Valter Longo has suggested that it is a concern, but there is no scientific consensus as yet.
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spud

entsminger wrote:
You can clearly see that Fred built 1.7 pounds of muscle from June 2016 to March 2019. If the claims of a total of 14 pounds of muscle built are to be believed, then simple math suggests that he built another 12.3 pounds of muscle from somewhere between 12 March 2019 to 31 July 2019 at the latest.

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There is no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.


The link to the relevant web page making the claims of 14 pounds of muscle was deleted from my original post. I'll try again.

highintensitybusiness [dot] com
/podcast/fred-hahn-slow-burn-muscle-gain/
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Nwlifter

Average Al wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Questions,

1) is turning on growth hormone and subsequently IGF wise at his age?

2) why the partial use of the World Health Organization guidelines (BMI) and ignore WHO guidelines on protein(5 percent)?


3) Why high protein? A corresponding high carbohydrate diet will fill glycogen storage in the muscles for even better body composition results, and insulin is the primary anabolic hormone. The nitrogen molecule on excessive protein can not be stored in the body and must be excreted.

Went through that huge bloated WHO protein PDF..
they say for a healthy stable person
"0.83 g/kg per day of protein with a protein digestibility-corrected amino acid score value of 1.0"
So a 180 lb guy that'd be 68 grams a day and they point out, that's high quality protein (PDCA of 1.0, lots in that long paper about digestion and quality of proteins)
Of course, we know now for sure from many studies that more protein than that, WILL for SURE increase muscle mass gains.





WHO recommendations for protein are aimed at preventing dietary deficiencies. Less is known about the protein intake which is optimal for health. That might be higher than the minimum defined by WHO.

Clearly Fred is making a statement with his results: he is leaner than he needs to be for health purposes; it is likely that he also wants to carry as much muscle as possible, and that is facilitated by higher protein intake.

But what about longevity? Probably too early to say for sure that too much protein is a negative. Victor Longo has suggested that it is a concern, but there is no scientific consensus as yet.


Agree.
1) WHO isn't saying 5% like was posted
2) What they do say is minimum for not being deficient
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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
You can clearly see that Fred built 1.7 pounds of muscle from June 2016 to March 2019. If the claims of a total of 14 pounds of muscle built are to be believed, then simple math suggests that he built another 12.3 pounds of muscle from somewhere between 12 March 2019 to 31 July 2019 at the latest.

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There is no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.


And in his podcast, he says he was 8% BF?
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ATP 4 Vitality

Dr. John McDougall M.D. has stated the WHO protein requirement as 5 percent. I can not find a blanket WHO protein requirement. For sure, Dr. McDougall is biased as is everyone else. He later states 4-5 percent protein is the minimal requirement.

The best WHO statement on protein intake:

Quote:

Thus the FAO/WHO (World Health Organization) recommended daily protein intake is

0.75g of protein per kg of lean body weight,

or 45g for an average 60kg (133 pound) healthy adult female, and 56g for an average 75kg (167 pound) male.

End quote

This is not a lot of protein a day. This protein need is easily met by plants. I am not even close to a vegetarian, as I love a pulled pork sandwich.

Dr McDougall recommendations are 7-15 percent protein. Easily met with plants.

In Dr Dardens latest book, Killing Fat, he refers to carbohydrates as protein sparing, and, that carbohydrates should be emphasized - page 68.

On page 69, Dr Darden states that - if you are trying to maintain your leanness, your protein can go down to 10 to 15 percent - I am trying to maintain. I am not into the Grant D continuous Gainz.


Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. has reversed heart disease in patients with his recommendations of 10 - 12 percent protein among his other recommendations.

Of what benefit is exaggerated body muscle expressions that lead to little long term health and vitality?

Perhaps it is time to train and feed the mind!
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Dr. John McDougall M.D. has stated the WHO protein requirement as 5 percent. I can not find a blanket WHO protein requirement. For sure, Dr. McDougall is biased as is everyone else. He later states 4-5 percent protein is the minimal requirement.

The best WHO statement on protein intake:

Quote:

Thus the FAO/WHO (World Health Organization) recommended daily protein intake is

0.75g of protein per kg of lean body weight,

or 45g for an average 60kg (133 pound) healthy adult female, and 56g for an average 75kg (167 pound) male.

End quote

This is not a lot of protein a day. This protein need is easily met by plants. I am not even close to a vegetarian, as I love a pulled pork sandwich.

Dr McDougall recommendations are 7-15 percent protein. Easily met with plants.

In Dr Dardens latest book, Killing Fat, he refers to carbohydrates as protein sparing, and, that carbohydrates should be emphasized - page 68.

On page 69, Dr Darden states that - if you are trying to maintain your leanness, your protein can go down to 10 to 15 percent - I am trying to maintain. I am not into the Grant D continuous Gainz.


Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. has reversed heart disease in patients with his recommendations of 10 - 12 percent protein among his other recommendations.

Of what benefit is exaggerated body muscle expressions that lead to little long term health and vitality?

Perhaps it is time to train and feed the mind!


Under 10% is just stupid for a healthy active adult, but to each his own.
Who says high quality high bio-available protein, not plant protein. Plant protein would probably require 100 grams a day to equal 60 from good sources.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Dr. John McDougall M.D. has stated the WHO protein requirement as 5 percent. I can not find a blanket WHO protein requirement. For sure, Dr. McDougall is biased as is everyone else. He later states 4-5 percent protein is the minimal requirement.

The best WHO statement on protein intake:

Quote:

Thus the FAO/WHO (World Health Organization) recommended daily protein intake is

0.75g of protein per kg of lean body weight,

or 45g for an average 60kg (133 pound) healthy adult female, and 56g for an average 75kg (167 pound) male.

End quote

This is not a lot of protein a day. This protein need is easily met by plants. I am not even close to a vegetarian, as I love a pulled pork sandwich.

Dr McDougall recommendations are 7-15 percent protein. Easily met with plants.

In Dr Dardens latest book, Killing Fat, he refers to carbohydrates as protein sparing, and, that carbohydrates should be emphasized - page 68.

On page 69, Dr Darden states that - if you are trying to maintain your leanness, your protein can go down to 10 to 15 percent - I am trying to maintain. I am not into the Grant D continuous Gainz.


Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. has reversed heart disease in patients with his recommendations of 10 - 12 percent protein among his other recommendations.

Of what benefit is exaggerated body muscle expressions that lead to little long term health and vitality?

Perhaps it is time to train and feed the mind!

Under 10% is just stupid for a healthy active adult, but to each his own.
Who says high quality high bio-available protein, not plant protein. Plant protein would probably require 100 grams a day to equal 60 from good sources.


Probably - science. Lol
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Nwlifter

ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:
Dr. John McDougall M.D. has stated the WHO protein requirement as 5 percent. I can not find a blanket WHO protein requirement. For sure, Dr. McDougall is biased as is everyone else. He later states 4-5 percent protein is the minimal requirement.

The best WHO statement on protein intake:

Quote:

Thus the FAO/WHO (World Health Organization) recommended daily protein intake is

0.75g of protein per kg of lean body weight,

or 45g for an average 60kg (133 pound) healthy adult female, and 56g for an average 75kg (167 pound) male.

End quote

This is not a lot of protein a day. This protein need is easily met by plants. I am not even close to a vegetarian, as I love a pulled pork sandwich.

Dr McDougall recommendations are 7-15 percent protein. Easily met with plants.

In Dr Dardens latest book, Killing Fat, he refers to carbohydrates as protein sparing, and, that carbohydrates should be emphasized - page 68.

On page 69, Dr Darden states that - if you are trying to maintain your leanness, your protein can go down to 10 to 15 percent - I am trying to maintain. I am not into the Grant D continuous Gainz.


Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr., M.D. has reversed heart disease in patients with his recommendations of 10 - 12 percent protein among his other recommendations.

Of what benefit is exaggerated body muscle expressions that lead to little long term health and vitality?

Perhaps it is time to train and feed the mind!

Under 10% is just stupid for a healthy active adult, but to each his own.
Who says high quality high bio-available protein, not plant protein. Plant protein would probably require 100 grams a day to equal 60 from good sources.


Probably - science. Lol


No that should be 'WHO' not 'Who' re-read that with the right capital letter indicating the 'WHO' organization.
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Average Al

My curiosity was aroused enough that I decided to take a closer look at the body composition data that Fred Hahn has posted on his Facebook page. I went through his photo library and collected all the data that he had posted going back to 2016. This was mostly InBody data, with one complete DEXA report. There were also a couple of InBody and DEXA data points from his slide show.

I ended up tabulating and plotting only the InBody data, since there was a fair amount of that. I didn't do much with the DEXA data points, as they were few and far between.

My impressions:

There is a decent amount of data, sporadically collected from July 30, 2016 through September 20, 2017. In this time frame his weight fluctuated between 172 and 180 lbs.

- He was about 175 during the summer of 2016

- By the spring of 2017, his weight had gone up to 180.

- By August 2017, his weight was down to 172, and he maintained this into the start of 2018.

Throughout this period, is skeletal muscle mass was relatively constant, at about 81.5 lbs, though it had dropped slightly, to about 77.5 lbs by the end of 2017. His percent body fat was running around 16-20%

Then there is a gap in the data, from mid January through August of 2018. During this time period, a major change in body composition occurred:

- In January 2018 he weighed about 171 lbs, about 75-78 lbs skeletal muscle, and 18% body fat.

- By August 2018, he was down to about 157 lbs, 83.5 lbs skeletal muscle and 5% body fat.

Spud says that, in the podcast, he makes a statement about losing 15 lbs between April and July of 2017. He must have actually meant between April and July of 2018.

While we can't see what happened during the gap, the differences in the data before and after the gap probably represents the results of the IF experiment (since I believe he was low carb long before 2016).

From August, 2018 to the end of the year, he pretty much maintained his condition (though both the body weight and skeletal muscle mass numbers do drop a couple of pounds toward the end of the year.)

Then, during the course of 2019 his weight started to increase again, reaching 165, and his skeletal muscle mass also increased, reaching about 90 lbs. His percent body fat did not change noticeably when the these weight increases began.

So from what I see here, two major things happened:

When he did the IF, his body weight dropped about 15 lbs, his body fat percentage dropped from about 18% to 5%, and his skeletal muscle mass increased to 83.5 lbs. His skeletal muscle mass after IF was about 6 lbs higher than he reported at the end of 2017, but was only 2 lbs higher than what he had maintained during most of 2016 and 2017.

The second major change was in the latter part of 2019, when he added 10-12 lbs of total weight, and 5 - 7.5 lbs of skeletal muscle (at nominally the same percent body fat).

So I don't see, in this data, clear evidence of a 14 lb increase in muscle mass. From the start in 2016, to the last data point reported in 2019, he may have gained 7.5 lbs of muscle, 10 lbs if you measure against the data at the end of 2017. (Only if you compare the lowest data point reported to the highest data point reported, can you get 14 lbs. But by doing that, you are almost certainly counting some random variation or noise in the data as a real gain. I don't think that is justified.)

Of the muscle gain that he did get, maybe 5 lbs of that could be credited to a higher protein intake (if that is what he was doing in the last half of 2019). The IF could account for 2.5 to 5 lbs of muscle gain, depending on which data points you use as the before number.

I have tried to attach a PDF of my graphs, hopefully they will post OK.
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:
ATP 4 Vitality wrote:


No that should be 'WHO' not 'Who' re-read that with the right capital letter indicating the 'WHO' organization.


As we age , dietary protein is not absorbed as when one is younger. Dietary protein is not completely absorbed at any age. What is not emphasized is the recycling of dead cells in the intestine which are recycled. No telling what gut bacteria do!

Sure, Fred lost fat, but muscle, who knows! I can carb load prior to and after a work out , and personally gain the muscle Fred gained in just ONE workout. This too fluctuates. However, overall I think Fred did well! He posted comments later in the podcast that further illuminated his data.
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Average Al

Average Al wrote:

I have tried to attach a PDF of my graphs, hopefully they will post OK.



Doesn't seem to have worked. So here is a JPG version.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I'm thinking the same people who pay to be on Drew Bays blog should start paying Fred Hahn for the valuable information, ha ha! This stuff is so good I see book deals, talk shows and maybe a movie or two!!
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Average Al

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I'm thinking the same people who pay to be on Drew Bays blog should start paying Fred Hahn for the valuable information, ha ha! This stuff is so good I see book deals, talk shows and maybe a movie or two!!


I mentioned earlier that he has a book deal to write about this. Once the book is out, maybe a promo appearance on The Today Show? He has gotten some air time in the past.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Nwlifter wrote:
entsminger wrote:
You can clearly see that Fred built 1.7 pounds of muscle from June 2016 to March 2019. If the claims of a total of 14 pounds of muscle built are to be believed, then simple math suggests that he built another 12.3 pounds of muscle from somewhere between 12 March 2019 to 31 July 2019 at the latest.

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.

I'm listening to that podcast, so far he's said months of I.F. with extra protein, he lost a bunch of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle. that fits the before and after photos.


==Scott==
Yea, he lost some blubber and possibly gained an oz or two of muscle. So what??
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Average Al

entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.

I'm listening to that podcast, so far he's said months of I.F. with extra protein, he lost a bunch of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle. that fits the before and after photos.

==Scott==
Yea, he lost some blubber and possibly gained an oz or two of muscle. So what??


When it comes to physique, tastes change over time. I sense that being very lean with visible musculature has become more fashionable of late. Perhaps it is backlash from the general public associating the big-muscle superhero look with steroids. Or perhaps it is just the growing awareness that the superhero look is simply not achievable for most. But anyone can get lean, if they have enough willpower. So it seems that people who say they can get you that ripped look are in higher demand.

Fred is a near 60 year old guy who now has that look. And he got that look by Intermittent Fasting, another fitness/diet trend that has become very fashionable. Seems like a good selling opportunity for him.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

Average Al wrote:
entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.

I'm listening to that podcast, so far he's said months of I.F. with extra protein, he lost a bunch of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle. that fits the before and after photos.

==Scott==
Yea, he lost some blubber and possibly gained an oz or two of muscle. So what??

When it comes to physique, tastes change over time. I sense that being very lean with visible musculature has become more fashionable of late. Perhaps it is backlash from the general public associating the big-muscle superhero look with steroids. Or perhaps it is just the growing awareness that the superhero look is simply not achievable for most. But anyone can get lean, if they have enough willpower. So it seems that people who say they can get you that ripped look are in higher demand.

Fred is a near 60 year old guy who now has that look. And he got that look by Intermittent Fasting, another fitness/diet trend that has become very fashionable. Seems like a good selling opportunity for him.


===Scott==
Many years ago I went through this fasting one day a week and pigging out another day of the week and eating very healthy the rest of the week. I got to a very trim and fit state but I was also doing triathlons etc at the same time but am I going to start a blog or write a book about it, ha ha.The fasting part sucked and my mind was always on when do I get to eat again. There's a million ways to lose weight and look more muscular even at 60 or over and this fasting thing is nothing new. Frankly I like his looks when he's heavier. he looks more powerful.
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Nwlifter

entsminger wrote:
Average Al wrote:
entsminger wrote:

==Scott==
I don't understand this thinking that he added 14 pounds of muscle at any time? He lost some blubber and the muscles show better. There no evidence whatsoever that he gained any muscle at all in that time and 4% body weight?? I think he'd need to be alot more shredded to be 4%.

I'm listening to that podcast, so far he's said months of I.F. with extra protein, he lost a bunch of fat and gained a few pounds of muscle. that fits the before and after photos.

==Scott==
Yea, he lost some blubber and possibly gained an oz or two of muscle. So what??

When it comes to physique, tastes change over time. I sense that being very lean with visible musculature has become more fashionable of late. Perhaps it is backlash from the general public associating the big-muscle superhero look with steroids. Or perhaps it is just the growing awareness that the superhero look is simply not achievable for most. But anyone can get lean, if they have enough willpower. So it seems that people who say they can get you that ripped look are in higher demand.

Fred is a near 60 year old guy who now has that look. And he got that look by Intermittent Fasting, another fitness/diet trend that has become very fashionable. Seems like a good selling opportunity for him.


===Scott==
Many years ago I went through this fasting one day a week and pigging out another day of the week and eating very healthy the rest of the week. I got to a very trim and fit state but I was also doing triathlons etc at the same time but am I going to start a blog or write a book about it, ha ha.The fasting part sucked and my mind was always on when do I get to eat again. There's a million ways to lose weight and look more muscular even at 60 or over and this fasting thing is nothing new. Frankly I like his looks when he's heavier. he looks more powerful.


Yeah but that's how it works.. .I toss food together and eat it, others do that and write a recipe book and people buy it. Most books are full of info. we could easily figure out on our own, but...
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ATP 4 Vitality

Nwlifter wrote:


Yeah but that's how it works.. .I toss food together and eat it, others do that and write a recipe book and people buy it. Most books are full of info. we could easily figure out on our own, but...


Like the material Baye sells
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