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Meat-Eating Fairy Tales
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blacksheep21

I'm not going to get into another back and forth about this like I did years ago. Just want to say anyone who is interested in athletic performance and health should check out "The game changers" on Netflix. Arnold has a lot to say on it.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

I don't trust anything Arnold says anymore
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sirloin

hit4me wrote:
I don't trust anything Arnold says anymore


Yeah and Arnold is still partial to a steak.
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

== Scott==
So I don?t get Net Flix so what?s gist of the story?
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blacksheep21

entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
So I don?t get Net Flix so what?s gist of the story?

You wouldn't like it Scott. It shows scientific evidence and different people from pro sports attesting to the benefits of a plant based diet. I just thought someone might benefit from watching it. No preaching here.
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Average Al

You can rent it from a number of outlets for $3.99

Bottom line: eat plants, to be a beast.

Here is the wikipedia entry:

----
The Game Changers is a 2018 documentary film about the benefits of plant-based eating for athletes.[1][2][3] It covers multiple success stories of plant-based athletes, references scientific studies, and touches on other arguments for plant-based diets that extend to non-athletes.

It received generally positive reviews by viewers, but also received criticism for scientific inaccuracies and a perceived unbalanced support for plant-based nutrition,[4][5] with some experts accusing it of misinformation[6][7] and pseudoscience.[7]
----

The wikipedia article goes into a bit more detail about the criticisms. You can find a number of less than favorable critiques on the internet, if that sort of thing interests you.

As with all things diet and exercise: read as much as you can, make your own choices.

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sirloin

blacksheep21 wrote:
entsminger wrote:
== Scott==
So I don?t get Net Flix so what?s gist of the story?
You wouldn't like it Scott. It shows scientific evidence and different people from pro sports attesting to the benefits of a plant based diet. I just thought someone might benefit from watching it. No preaching here.


Meat eating "fairy tales", and you say no preaching...yeah right.


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sirloin

A part of the documentary looks into the effects of meat consumption and its effect on the climate, the experts say we should / need to consume "less" meat, thats something many can except, myself included. But what chaps my ass are these militant vegans and clamite rebellion liberal hippies who are "telling" us, we MUST go completely vegan. Cant see it happening, when the crops failed on the island i live on, many starved to death, it was Europe's worst famine.

Another part of the documentary talks about how gladiators where consuming a plant based diet, of course theres also evidence that there where others that consumed meat.

With being into strongman, am well aware of who Partick Baboumian is and have watched most of his YouTube videos, he recently did a full day of eating video, it was anything but healthy, his diet was nothing but supplements and junk, and yet this individual was included in the video.

Funny the documentary didnt mention how the people of Iceland are some of the longest living people in the world, and they consume a lot of meat, fish and animal byproducts. Same with the Mediterranean diet. Lets just skip over that though, and that fact the likes of Baboumain was on drugs when he won BB shows and did strongman records.

Overall, everyone and their granny should know by now that you can get ample protein on a plant based diet, the issue for many is that their guts just cant deal with copious amounts of fiber and carb loads.







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Gainz

The Game Changers is complete nonsense and has been debunked all over YouTube.

If you want the real deal on diet and health, check out Dr Paul Saladino's stuff.
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1958

Texas, USA

I was born with,and still possess,gnashing teeth.My eyes are located in the front of my head.This is enough to tell me that hunting/meat eating is in my DNA.More meat for me,please!
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entsminger

Virginia, USA

==Scott==
I pretty much shy away for anything that says you should only eat this or that and never eat this type of food.Same philosophy on exercise. I pretty much ignore it when someone says only do HIT or Cardio or slow or fast reps,etc.I like to mix things up.
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Average Al

I see nothing wrong with telling people to eat more fruits and vegetables. That would likely improve most people's health.

Suggesting you should avoid all meat and dairy products? That is much more questionable. We've been eating meat since we became a distinct species. And the hominids that we evolved from were eating meat at least 2,000,000 years ago. It is even possible that meat eating, hunting, and the development of tools to facilitate hunting were all drivers for the evolution of our large brains.

Picking a diet based on ethical, moral, or environmental considerations? I guess I can understand the urge. But your body needs what it needs, and that is largely dictated by how we evolved, regardless of whether or not it is currently fashionable.

And simply avoid meat and dairy doesn't mean you are eating healthy. A vegetarian diet can still be high in fat (from plant oils), sugar, and highly refined carbohydrates. Donuts, french fries, potato chips, and jelly beans are all "vegetarian". Fat unhealthy vegetarians do exist.

That said, it does seem that some interesting things happen on an extremely low fat (less than 10%) plant based diets: Cholesterol levels plummet in most people, and insulin sensitivity skyrockets for most people. That might be good for some individuals, depending on the health issues they are dealing with. But such diets tend to be low in protein, and that might not be so good for retaining muscle mass as you age. Such diets are also extremely difficult to adhere to.

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Average Al

Gainz wrote:

If you want the real deal on diet and health, check out Dr Paul Saladino's stuff.


So... eat nothing but animals (muscle and organs), avoid plants because they are toxic?

It seems like another extreme diet, based mostly on theories and anecdotal evidence.

After looking at his menus (tier 5) I would have a hard time living that way.

Perhaps that is what paleolithic peoples in northern climates were forced to eat to survive during the ice ages. It might not be representative of what our more distant hominid ancestors ate while they were roaming the more temperate plains of Africa, and evolving (over a couple of million years) into homo sapiens.
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ATP 4 Vitality

entsminger wrote:
==Scott==
I pretty much shy away for anything that says you should only eat this or that and never eat this type of food.Same philosophy on exercise. I pretty much ignore it when someone says only do HIT or Cardio or slow or fast reps,etc.I like to mix things up.


Wisdom speaks
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PTDaniel

blacksheep21 wrote:
I'm not going to get into another back and forth about this like I did years ago. Just want to say anyone who is interested in athletic performance and health should check out "The game changers" on Netflix. Arnold has a lot to say on it.


There is no scientific validation of the superiority of one diet or another in regards to health outcomes or athletic performance. The vast majority of nutrition research is based on associative epidemiological surveys which are useless in drawing cause and effect conclusions. Nutritional randomized control trials are too long, expensive, and probably unethical to perform, but those would be the requirement for forming cause and effect conclusions. The individual is left to his or her own devices in discovering the dietary practices that will reward him or her with the best health and athletic performance outcomes.
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PTDaniel

Average Al wrote:
Gainz wrote:

If you want the real deal on diet and health, check out Dr Paul Saladino's stuff.

So... eat nothing but animals (muscle and organs), avoid plants because they are toxic?

It seems like another extreme diet, based mostly on theories and anecdotal evidence.

After looking at his menus (tier 5) I would have a hard time living that way.

Perhaps that is what paleolithic peoples in northern climates were forced to eat to survive during the ice ages. It might not be representative of what our more distant hominid ancestors ate while they were roaming the more temperate plains of Africa, and evolving (over a couple of million years) into homo sapiens.


Ice ages? Most of human evolution occurred during a global ice age. Humans would tend to eat meat since the energy density contained in an animal is far greater than the energy density in plants. Why would humans expend energy preferentially foraging for plants with low energy and low nutrient yield even if they lived in a plant rich area? For instance herbivorous gorillas spend 80% of their day eating to get enough energy from a plant based diet. They also have to consume their own feces to get adequate amounts of certain vitamins not available from the plants until bacteria in their digestive tract convert it into a usable form. Carnivores don't need to expend that much energy locating food and eating. The carnivore uses the herbivore as the digestive middleman providing concentrated, highly bioavailable vitamins and energy.

All dietary recommendations are anecdotal. There are no randomized controlled trials that can conclude one diet is better than the other in regards to health or athletic performance outcomes.
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Average Al

PTDaniel wrote:

Ice ages? Most of human evolution occurred during a global ice age. Humans would tend to eat meat since the energy density contained in an animal is far greater than the energy density in plants. Why would humans expend energy preferentially foraging for plants with low energy and low nutrient yield even if they lived in a plant rich area? For instance herbivorous gorillas spend 80% of their day eating to get enough energy from a plant based diet. They also have to consume their own feces to get adequate amounts of certain vitamins not available from the plants until bacteria in their digestive tract convert it into a usable form. Carnivores don't need to expend that much energy locating food and eating. The carnivore uses the herbivore as the digestive middleman providing concentrated, highly bioavailable vitamins and energy.



Homo Sapiens (modern humans) first appeared between 150,000 and 300,000 years ago, somewhere in Africa (where is not clear). Current theories have us leaving Africa between 50,000 and 80,000 years ago, and then rapidly spreading around the world from there. So the majority of the evolution of our species happened in Africa. The climate there was not immune to change as a result of advancing and retreating glaciers, but I believe the climate was still relatively temperate. The effect of the ice ages was to make Africa dried, shrinking the forested areas, and displacing these with grasslands/savanna. That change is believed to be an important driver of human evolution, since we (probably) evolved from primates who lived in forests, didn't travel very far, and ate mostly fruit and other vegetation.

The principle adaptations driven by a drier climate were an upright posture and changes in hip structure to facilitate more efficient walking (at the expense of tree climbing ability). This enabled more effective foraging for food in the new ecosystem, since food would have had to be gathered over a wider area. There is also evidence of a change in the diet: those first upright primates had massive jaws and molars, much bigger even than modern day chimps and gorillas. The thought is that we ate less fruit, and were forced to start mushing up coarser, more fibrous foods, like roots, tubers, and seeds, as well as whatever vegetation was available.

Chimpanzees do eat a small amount of meat, so it is likely that those early upright apes also scavenged meat. And, over time, they probably starting eating more meat (because of calorie density and availability), eventually becoming smart enough and skillful enough to be quite successful hunters. But given the episodic nature of hunting, it seems unlikely that they would have immediately abandoned a known source of food (plants) and completely replaced it with meat. That would have been even more true once they had mastery of fire, because cooking improves calorie availability from both meat and tubers. And, evidence suggests that tubers were a widely and readily available alternative source of food.

So it was only until recently (last 50,000 years) that you had humans living in northern latitudes where a heavy reliance on hunting would have been a necessity.

Why is that relevant? Because paleo proponents often say that the food from agriculture is not compatible with our bodies, because we only started farming 10,000 years ago. But 50,000 years is really not that much longer, in evolutionary terms. Certainly not long enough for us to have become obligate carnivores. There is a much longer period of time when our diet very likely consisted of a mixture of meat, tubers, vegetation, seeds, nuts, and whatever else was available, including insects.

Based on that narrative, which I believe largely reflects the current understanding of our evolutionary history, I find it implausible that plant foods, as a category, are toxic to humans.




All dietary recommendations are anecdotal. There are no randomized controlled trials that can conclude one diet is better than the other in regards to health or athletic performance outcomes.


Eating patterns and diet do vary by culture, and you can compare those cultural eating patterns to health outcomes and draw some conclusions. If you wish to characterize those studies as anecdotal, so be it. I think they are a little more useful than that.

Looking at particular chemical components of food, and using the presence of those chemicals as a theoretical basis for excluding entire categories of food that people have traditionally eaten seems questionable too.


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ATP 4 Vitality

PTDaniel wrote:

Most of human evolution occurred during a global ice age.


How do you know this?

Even the experts agree to disagree!

Paleo is a myth!

Diets based on Paleo mythology are foolish!

At the beginning of the 20th century, all the fossil records used to support ape - to - human evolution could be placed on a billiard table!
Since then, fossil evidence has increased, but consists of single bones or isolated teeth and rarely complete skeletons! Today, experts have agreed on a consensus! There is NO consensus!

Bye bye
Paleo!

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Gainz

Here is an article which should provide some context to my earlier post:

https://www.diagnosisdiet.com/...
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backtrack

The idea that humans started out in Africa is unprovable. That's a debate in itself.

What do all these different diets tell us? They tell us that we can eat a wide variety of food and survive.

There are some people that just eat meat.

Forgetting how we think people lived, however long ago. If we were alone in the world now starting out from the year dot we'd probably eat wild animals, moreso if we were isolated or in a small band of people. If we were part of a large group of people we'd more likely go into agriculture plus or minus meat, but meat would be our starting point. Unless you have fridges and freezers meat becomes far more problematic once you start growing your civilization. But small bands of people can quite happily take what animals they need off the land without causing any damage to the native wildlife population or the sustainability of their needs. And just imagine the abundance of wild animals even 200 years ago.

On a small scale if you're not fussy about what animals you eat, you can get a large amount of calories quickly without having to tend to a field. If you have to tend to a field this is energy intensive and there's a chance crops will fail. Chances are you'd need the calories from meat to have the energy to grow your crops or pick your fruits. (In the case of the industrial revolution sugar was what was needed to give people the energy required to sustain their labour.) Now people, particularly in the western world, are far more sedentary, people don't know what's good form them and hence the the rise in gym culture, diets and a general plethora of different versions of what is supposedly best for us.

In terms of what is good for us versus what we want is self-evident. We want a choice of different foods to be available to us at all times. There are times most of us crave sugar in some form - our brains are hard wired for it. To the point, food scientists are always tweaking ingredients to maximise what they call the sweet spot.
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epdavis7

I don?t have a time machine, so I can?t speak to the whole historical aspect. Here?s what I do know and have witnessed in myself and others. When I eat lower carb and avoid grains and simple sugars I?m less hungry and consume less total calories without it being a struggle. I eat lower carb, but not as low carb as strict ketogenists. I watched a coworker lose over 100lbs and keep it off doing a strict Keto diet combined with intermittent fasting. I watched my older sister who is a four time cancer survivor do extremely well on a Keto diet. It is her belief that sugar feeds cancer. She got the all clear and her other blood work is excellent. Coincidence? I don?t know.

I?m not a Spartan or militant about it and have 2-3 cheat meals a week. I did get off track a lot from Thanksgiving to Christmas and gained a few pounds. I got very strict from Jan 1 until now and I?m back to where I was prior to without starving myself. I ate steaks, eggs, hamburgers, chicken, butter and lots of vegetables. Nothing else. I drank lots of water and black coffee. I?ll now start adding back in the odd piece of fruit and occasional cheat meal. It?s the simplest way I?ve found to lose weight without suffering. Low fat diets just make me homicidal and a ticking time bomb lol....and hungry all the time.

The comment about unhealthy vegetarians is true in some cases. We have an obese vegan at work. She eats her veggies, fruits, beans, grains and taters, but also eats lots of cookies, doughnuts, chips, candy etc. It?s not meat right?

I admit some of the Paleo talk is goofy and people make a lot of assumptions based on scientific hypotheses that are not proven fact. The militant Keto and Paleo guys annoy me as much as the vegans.
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hit4me

Florida, USA

the problem is not what we eat.....but how much we eat

of course you don't want a diet of cookies and ice cream....but a healthy, balanced diet of whole grains, fruits and veggies and some animal products such as eggs and meat, fowl and fish
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1958

Texas, USA

We do not need whole grains.
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Nwlifter

I don't think we need cave man records to know what's healthy or not, even knowing what people ate 10,000 years ago tells us nothing of their health, why do we assume that what people ate a long time ago = perfect health?

If we look at real people right now, peoples that have had their health stats checked, who eat a consistent diet, that gives us the best glimpse. And there are 'tribes'/'peoples' that are super healthy on almost pure fruit and veggies, some that eat almost pure meat, and some that eat a blend. The only common thing I see when I looked them up, is most seem to be a healthy or even thin bodyweight and are pretty active in daily life.
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ATP 4 Vitality

1958 wrote:
We do not need whole grains.


Speak for yourself!

Hungry poor people eat what is available and have been eating - whole grains - for centuries.
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